Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2016-01-05T17:47:21+02:00

Sounds good to me.

At first I was thinking just unrank in the first three minutes like team games but then if someone messes up their BO they can just quit even though they should take a loss.

GG

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 05 Jan 2016, 17:47

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2016-01-05T11:52:04+02:00

Going with 4 minutes in the first iteration at least. We can take a look at changing it later: https://github.com/FAForever/server/com ... ef889f08f4

This will be live on the dev server later today and by extension it'll make it with the push of the beta, which is soon (tm) .

Statistics: Posted by Sheeo — 05 Jan 2016, 11:52

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2016-01-04T22:54:41+02:00

That seems like a reasonable time limit to me.

Statistics: Posted by briang — 04 Jan 2016, 22:54

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2016-01-04T22:54:05+02:00

This never bothered me that much but it does make sense that a game should be unranked if it is mutually-agreed. I'm glad to see it's getting some motion.

Thank you, Sheeo.

Maybe only allow it to happen within the first four minutes? From what I have seen it's pretty much impossible to end a game in four minutes, even on a 5x5....

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 04 Jan 2016, 22:54

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2016-01-01T01:52:15+02:00

Sheeo wrote:
I hope you haven't misunderstood me

I had. Thanks for clearing that up. Support your second point and don't quite follow the third, which I will blame on my hangover

Statistics: Posted by Sir Prize — 01 Jan 2016, 01:52

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-31T14:00:14+02:00

Sir Prize wrote:
Definitely should implement this

I hope you haven't misunderstood me: This is being implemented.

Sir Prize wrote:
Sheeo I don't quite understand your points. Draws are agreed to when the game is not going to represent an actual draw under normal gameplay, and shouldn't affect rating. Including agreed draws in rating calculations makes the rating system more inaccurate.

We don't know whether or not the game was 'normal'. I think it's fair to assume that a mutually agreed draw that happens within the first 5-10 minutes is indeed an indicator of an unusual problem. However, a mutually agreed draw 10+ minutes into the game is, in my mind, highly unlikely not to represent any skill based performance between the players.

Sir Prize wrote:
The hypothetical possibility of abusing agreed draws (which is still dependent on your opponent's goodwill and would hardly work every time) is so minor it shouldn't be governing how we improve the rating system and, more importantly, people's experience of playing ladder. See this delightful exchange for an example, I might have considered drawing if his excuse was a little better and I wouldn't have been inaccurately losing points I'd never have lost if we played properly http://fafafaf.bitbucket.org/#2479354.

It's not so much the possibility of abusing agreed draws, it's the simple fact that for our rating system to work, the ratings need to be updated. Regression to the mean after draws are one of the ways this happens.

Statistics: Posted by Sheeo — 31 Dec 2015, 14:00

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-31T03:48:43+02:00

Definitely should implement this, Sheeo I don't quite understand your points. Draws are agreed to when the game is not going to represent an actual draw under normal gameplay, and shouldn't affect rating. Including agreed draws in rating calculations makes the rating system more inaccurate.

The hypothetical possibility of abusing agreed draws (which is still dependent on your opponent's goodwill and would hardly work every time) is so minor it shouldn't be governing how we improve the rating system and, more importantly, people's experience of playing ladder. See this delightful exchange for an example, I might have considered drawing if his excuse was a little better and I wouldn't have been inaccurately losing points I'd never have lost if we played properly http://fafafaf.bitbucket.org/#2479354.

Statistics: Posted by Sir Prize — 31 Dec 2015, 03:48

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-31T03:17:17+02:00

I'm not so sure it's a good idea to take it out for possible abuse. It is helpful to people at times. Would it be possible to just make games that end in a mutually agreed draw to just not count as a game? Null and void in regards to its effect on the figures?

Perhaps it would be easier to implement your solution. I don't know.

Statistics: Posted by Comrade_Shamrock — 31 Dec 2015, 03:17

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-31T02:07:13+02:00

Comrade_Shamrock wrote:
I had technical difficulties when I tried out one of the UI mods. It messed up my com and made me unable to build with anything besides with the com. I could not change build orders either and then when I did try and build something with my com I could not deselect what I was building. Following that, I also could no longer select my tanks. Thankfully my opponent allowed us to draw instead of taking advantage of the fact to increase their rating.

4183917

Well that sucks. It should definitely not be representative of normal play, though. So I don't think we should consider it in the normal case.

Comrade_Shamrock wrote:
I can also see other times where it could come in useful. Perhaps someone forgot an appointment or they were suddenly asked to do chores or do something like bowling. Is it fair to them to let them accept a defeat and lose points? Especially against a lower rated player, where their points would take a bigger dip.

We can't know about these things so we have to assume something. While benefit of the doubt is nice, as I argued before, this is part of how the entire rating system works and evolves. Updates need to happen, even when players may be sad to lose 'points'.

I can't stress enough that these are not 'points' that you are awarded, but an estimate based not just on your skill, but the combined set of skills of our entire player base.

Statistics: Posted by Sheeo — 31 Dec 2015, 02:07

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-30T16:42:27+02:00

Sheeo I respectfully disagree with this point.

Infact, we should probably limit the mutually agreed draw to occur within a set time from the start of the game, e.g. 5 minutes.

I had technical difficulties when I tried out one of the UI mods. It messed up my com and made me unable to build with anything besides with the com. I could not change build orders either and then when I did try and build something with my com I could not deselect what I was building. Following that, I also could no longer select my tanks. Thankfully my opponent allowed us to draw instead of taking advantage of the fact to increase their rating.

4183917

I can also see other times where it could come in useful. Perhaps someone forgot an appointment or they were suddenly asked to do chores or do something like bowling. Is it fair to them to let them accept a defeat and lose points? Especially against a lower rated player, where their points would take a bigger dip.

Statistics: Posted by Comrade_Shamrock — 30 Dec 2015, 16:42

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-29T11:00:17+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
Equally though sheeo, you just proved his point: A measure of performance should not be recalculated on the basis that no performance took place, as in the case of a mutually agreed draw. Neither player won or lost, and the game ended on a non-performance-related metric. So this should definitely be a thing

We don't know that no display of skill took place, even in the case of mutually agreed draw. So no, I did not prove his point.

Infact, we should probably limit the mutually agreed draw to occur within a set time from the start of the game, e.g. 5 minutes.

Regression to the mean for both players is just a conservative update of their individual ratings -- since we only update ratings after games (currently), this is one of the only ways we can have overall regression to the mean, which is, as I argued, necessary for the ratings to be globally valid.

Statistics: Posted by Sheeo — 29 Dec 2015, 11:00

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-29T08:29:53+02:00

Equally though sheeo, you just proved his point: A measure of performance should not be recalculated on the basis that no performance took place, as in the case of a mutually agreed draw. Neither player won or lost, and the game ended on a non-performance-related metric. So this should definitely be a thing

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 29 Dec 2015, 08:29

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-29T04:44:35+02:00

Sovietpride wrote:
If that's not hte wya the system sees it (higher skills should always beat lower skiled) why does a draw result in the points being given as they are, with the higher losing and the lower gaining, just to a lesser extent?

For each match up the rating system calculates a probability of winning. Assuming higher skilled players always beat lower skilled players, this probability would always be 0% or 100%.

When two players draw, their ratings will regress to the common mean.

Sovietpride wrote:
Regardless, that was how i tried to understand it as a basis of the argument (if one were ever needed...) that mutually decided draws should not cost points.

It is a fallacy to consider your rating as 'points' (This word implies a sort of reward/benefit system). Ratings are not 'awarded' and they are not 'taken', they are estimated based on your performance, and the performance of everyone else. This final point is important: Ideally your rating will change even if you do not play any games.

It is meant to represent your skill within the global set of skills -- so whenever the entire set shifts, so should your rating. In practice, this does not happen until you have played a few games, since we calculate the rating changes incrementally for each match up.

Statistics: Posted by Sheeo — 29 Dec 2015, 04:44

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-29T01:54:11+02:00

If that's not hte wya the system sees it (higher skills should always beat lower skiled) why does a draw result in the points being given as they are, with the higher losing and the lower gaining, just to a lesser extent?

Regardless, that was how i tried to understand it as a basis of the argument (if one were ever needed...) that mutually decided draws should not cost points.

Statistics: Posted by Sovietpride — 29 Dec 2015, 01:54

Re: Offering a draw in ladder to cost no points.

2015-12-28T14:03:51+02:00

Do you see a lot of player abusing it ?
a part from Lame, who has been banned. I've encounter only a few of people asking for a draw after being afk in 800 games.. Maybe there is abuse, i just didn't see it already.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 28 Dec 2015, 14:03