Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-21T10:00:51+02:00

I think a good start would be to have a start screen or popup window, which shows informations based on player strength / rating.

So lets say there are 4 groups of players, each group with a specific start screen:
beginner
noobs < 800
average 800 - 1500
good / pro > 1600

Each start screen should only show links and news with relevant information.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 21 Dec 2015, 10:00

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-21T02:02:43+02:00

I did what I said, unless people find a better solution, you guys are welcome to pm and see if what I propose is any good, for now I will just wait and see where this goes, if we make no progress then maybe I will just post them and see what everyone thinks.

Statistics: Posted by Nyx — 21 Dec 2015, 02:02

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-20T01:46:49+02:00

Blodir wrote:
Sorry Softly, but I disagree with you; coding is pretty damn hard. You just can't expect people to learn to code, so that they can implement a feature in FAF
http://www.vikingcodeschool.com/posts/why-learning-to-code-is-so-damn-hard

Its hardly the case that I'm expecting everyone to come along and immediately start coding. At the moment we have about ~10 devs and about ~10,000 unique players in the last month. That means we have a player to dev ratio of 1000 to 1. I don't see why we can't push that to 100 to 1.

Secondly I don't even agree high levels of expertise are even required, many improvements are just really simple things that together will make an impact.

Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about: https://github.com/FAForever/client/pull/274
Here's another example: https://github.com/FAForever/client/pull/254

Both of these are common sense simple things that can be easily fixed, and I don't see any reason that more people can't make small improvements like this.

For me getting people into contributing is about creating a community project of faf. I believe that getting more people into the simple bits of dev (minor bugfixes, typo correction etc) will also get others into the harder bits of dev too (major refactoring etc). Surely getting more people involved can only be a good thing for the long term future of FAF.

My goal is to empower people to improve FAF themselves; if you've got a better idea for improving productivity without increasing the size of the workforce, I'm all ears.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 20 Dec 2015, 01:46

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-17T03:16:45+02:00

Blodir wrote:
Sorry Softly, but I disagree with you; coding is pretty damn hard. You just can't expect people to learn to code, so that they can implement a feature in FAF
http://www.vikingcodeschool.com/posts/why-learning-to-code-is-so-damn-hard

I agree with this.

Blodir wrote:
People have very unreasonable expectations when it comes to learning to code. I find it ridiculous when people suggest that we should "teach everyone to code" etc.
http://www.coderslexicon.com/why-everyone-should-not-learn-to-code/

I feel like this comment http://fyre.it/Dn6s37.4 (wait a bit for it to load and scroll) really sums up the issue of everyone learning how to program. I mean passion is cool and all, but it's also a mindset, but this is also the very reason why I think everyone should learn the logic behind it. It provides a different way of thinking which while not everyone may be able to grasp it can help some who are not necessarily interested in the field be able to solve problems that come up in their respective fields.

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 17 Dec 2015, 03:16

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-17T01:25:32+02:00

Sorry Softly, but I disagree with you; coding is pretty damn hard. You just can't expect people to learn to code, so that they can implement a feature in FAF
http://www.vikingcodeschool.com/posts/why-learning-to-code-is-so-damn-hard

People have very unreasonable expectations when it comes to learning to code. I find it ridiculous when people suggest that we should "teach everyone to code" etc.
http://www.coderslexicon.com/why-everyone-should-not-learn-to-code/

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 17 Dec 2015, 01:25

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-16T12:21:00+02:00

Comrade_Shamrock wrote:
I mean after a match if you chat to them in aeolus or pms.

Another thing that is unknown when you are new: that pm-chat exists. The first time you hear a ping, you just miss it, because you don't know what to expect. The number of times that I played against a new player on ladder, watched the replay and gave advice in pm, which was never seen...

Statistics: Posted by ax0lotl — 16 Dec 2015, 12:21

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-16T02:45:43+02:00

Some things that don't involve coding that everyone can do and has no excuse not to, is to be welcoming. Perhaps if you see a new player you could say hi and offer some words of encouragement. I don't mean the standard "GL HF" stuff but this helps. I mean after a match if you chat to them in aeolus or pms. Try to compliment them if you can. Even if it's a small thing like say they took out your radar.

If you play with them, don't scream at them or call them useless because they did something wrong. Even if they make you want to eat your hat in frustration. It won't matter how helpful any tips are if more experienced keep bashing them and are cold. It's worse than just losing if everyone criticises them.

Basically:
Take the time and effort to make them feel warm and fuzzy inside. Make them want to come back not just for the wins but for the community.

Spoiler: show

Statistics: Posted by Comrade_Shamrock — 16 Dec 2015, 02:45

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-16T00:18:53+02:00

I agree its unhelpful to simply ask everyone who suggests something to "do it themselves". Just because someone doesn't necessarily have the time to implement an idea doesn't mean its a bad idea.

However, I don't think its unfair to ask people for just a small amount of time if they're eager for new things to happen. Its really really easy to get started contributing, we just need to get over the barrier of people thinking that because they're not experts they can't help.

The simple fact is that nobody has the time right now to put new stuff in, so unfortunately that means if people want stuff to happen they have to do it themselves.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 16 Dec 2015, 00:18

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-15T21:48:59+02:00

Softly wrote:
You're all suggesting ideas, feel free to present the code to match it

I hate this attitude, I mean you are actively pushing for more developers with the tutorial sessions you provide which is great, but not everyone can code. Also the comment isn't very encouraging, it just makes you look like a d***. How about record the suggestions on github, then use this as a sort of interactive project where the developers you are training can learn to work on the client while you answer their questions, it's a win-win for everyone.

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 15 Dec 2015, 21:48

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-15T21:30:21+02:00

Mycen wrote:
Another useful tool would be a unit database that is actually updated. I know I find it annoying to look through a bunch of information, calculate units' costs and capabilities, and then come to the forum and see that the information I was using is not accurate. I imagine it would be even more annoying for someone who is new.

No new player is going to read through dozens of changelogs just to figure out what the units' stats are right now.

A newbie that these sort of suggestions are targeted to has much bigger problems than whether the units stats are accurate imo. Hell, i'm fairly certain there is a not insignificant amount of player with 100+ games that have never looked at a unit stat. Not saying up to date unit stats wouldn't be great. They would. But probably not make or break when attempting to keep new players. I think people take for granted how overwhelming this game can be when completely new, especially when they have no idea there are such wiki pages, youtube videos or forum topics. I suspect that's why you not infrequently see the most basic questions asked in aeolus and sometimes completely ignored in the midst of an argument about a hypothetical US-UK war.

Statistics: Posted by Rudolph'sRedNose — 15 Dec 2015, 21:30

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-15T21:14:35+02:00

Softly wrote:
You're all suggesting ideas, feel free to present the code to match it

I'll be back in a few years
The thing is of course ideas are easier to come with than solutions, but it's a suggestion forum. If nothign gets done, well, no complaints If I knew how to fix bugs, I'd post on github

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 15 Dec 2015, 21:14

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-15T20:55:24+02:00

You're all suggesting ideas, feel free to present the code to match it

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 15 Dec 2015, 20:55

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-15T20:41:27+02:00

Mycen wrote:
Another useful tool would be a unit database that is actually updated. I know I find it annoying to look through a bunch of information, calculate units' costs and capabilities, and then come to the forum and see that the information I was using is not accurate. I imagine it would be even more annoying for someone who is new.

No new player is going to read through dozens of changelogs just to figure out what the units' stats are right now.

before that, I think fixing the mouse over unit info box bug might be nice.
When you had a selection of group of units, you could the mouse over any group of unit in the selection to see what it is, helping newbies to differientate bombers from interceptors for example. Now, since I'm not sure which patch, the only place to know what is what is the factory (or hovering over individual unit on the field).

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 15 Dec 2015, 20:41

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-15T20:18:03+02:00

Another useful tool would be a unit database that is actually updated. I know I find it annoying to look through a bunch of information, calculate units' costs and capabilities, and then come to the forum and see that the information I was using is not accurate. I imagine it would be even more annoying for someone who is new.

No new player is going to read through dozens of changelogs just to figure out what the units' stats are right now.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 15 Dec 2015, 20:18

Re: Attitude to new players, rating probs and first FAF expe

2015-12-15T18:05:27+02:00

There is a lot of tutorial stuff that already exist. YouTube, Wiki, Forums, ect. All in all - not in Tutorial tab.
Current tutorial tab only has a bunch of outdated replays and 2 links - one to trainer team and one to 5 year old newbie guide.

Now the question: how much coding would be needed to change sub tabs in Tutorial to new ones if there will be text prepared for it? I think this may not even be done by one persone. Sub tab with beginner's info, sub tab with game related tutorials, ect. I'm sure Ithilis would like to have a sub tab about Equilibrium mod there just to attract people to his mod. There is tonns of content here and there(forums, wiki, youtube, twitch), but not in FAF directly. If you want to guide new player throught features - just get him into such tutorial tab once he joined FAF first time.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 15 Dec 2015, 18:05