Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-12-29T08:41:13+02:00

The above post is overall a poor analysis of factional naval balance at every tech level right now and really dumb down how it is actually balanced...

Statistics: Posted by briang — 29 Dec 2015, 08:41

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-12-29T02:05:37+02:00

I don't think they need a buff (maybe just a tiny little one) and here is the reasoning:

T1 subs vs Frigates:
It may be frustrating that they need so long to kill effing frigates, however, the thing is that frigates have no way of fighting back. The sub will win any engagement untouched. The high HP of the frigate however is it's main appeal - if it wasn't for the fine HP-to-cost ratio, frigates would stop being useful later in the game <= which is the main reason imho to keep it as it is.

T2 subs vs destroyers:
The Valiant performs actually very bad against subs because of it's bad torpedoes. The seraphim destroyer is a mix of destroyer and sub because sera T2 navy has only 2 ships. The exodus is very good against T2 subs but that's okay because of the problems it has with this main cannons. Last remaining: The Salem. Yeah, bad matchup, however, Cybrans have the best T2 navy and they need it because their T3 navy is so weak.
Besides, destroyers are meant to be able to hunt subs. T2 subs can attack any ship including other subs and if that target happens to have no torpedoes, then the sub can kill it without getting hit itself. This is the reason why sometimes it's better to have subs than just destroyers.

Cooper vs destroyers:
By itself it is weaker but coupled with Bulwarks Coopers are a resource efficient anti naval vessels. Still the weakest link, however, this is by design and necessary for overall balancing of the UEF navy: Bulkwarks, missile cruisers and the Summit - UEF has a very strong naval game. Their weakness is torpedoes and subs, it's meant to be.

T3 subs vs anything:
Those seraphim T3 subhunters are insanely strong as they are, especially consiering they also pack tremendous AA for no reason.

Overall:
I'd say it's a delicate balance overall. Make them stonger and you will make other units like the frigate obsolete. Also, if you buff them, you risk effing the naval game in general - I'd rather see strong fleets of mixed units that are hard to crack and play important roles than games where you have initial sub spamfests until one side wins.

IF you want to apply buffs I would suggest:

A) A damage modfier of about +35% for subs against frigates only. This would neither make the subs OP nor the friagte obsolete.
B) Give T2 subs (and maybe the Cooper) decoy torpedoes that trigger enemy anti-torpedo measurements.

Statistics: Posted by Puschkin — 29 Dec 2015, 02:05

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-12-10T19:29:59+02:00

Give them stealth when stationary, have a a toggle button for "stealth speed" (still stealthy but slows down to a crawl) for every sub except Cybran (they can go full speed without dropping stealth), stealth removed after firing, reduce range and maybe give them a nasty alpha/low RoF (Ever seen what a torpedo does when it detonates right under a ship's keel? Is not a pretty sight, for the ship, that is), drastically lower underwater vision for non sub/sub-hunters (so that the stealthy part plays more of a factor).

Tl;dr: sub=sneaky ambush predator that terrorizes the sea, subhunter=de-facto counter

Statistics: Posted by zeroAPM — 10 Dec 2015, 19:29

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-12-10T18:33:42+02:00

da_monstr wrote:
As for Supcom subs: what bothers me is the fact how long 1 T1 sub takes to kill one frigate, by the time it's dead, it would have been able to do quite a bit of damage to e.g. expanding engies or mexes on the coast.

^^ This.

T1 subs are more expensive and take longer to build than Frigates, and yet they take about twice as long to kill a frigate as another frigate. So even though they are supposed to hard-counter frigates (apparently, since they're no good for anything else) if you want to attack a frigate you're better off just building another frigate! That is totally nonsensical. Then you get into how, aside from other T1 subs, they're killed in one or two volleys by pretty much anything that can shoot at them, and we get to where they're pretty much not useful at all.

Remember in TA, where the attack subs had very powerful but short-ranged torpedoes, good for attacking large targets, while the sub hunters had weaker, but longer ranged guided torps, and were good for attacking other subs? I don't see why we wouldn't seek a similar sort of balance here.

I think it wouldn't hurt to look into increasing the amount of damage they do, to the point where:
1) You can't just ignore them with early frigates while you wipe out the enemy naval foothold.
2) As with frigates, you actually have to do something about them in later stages of the naval game, they can actually add damage to your naval engagement without getting brushed aside without your opponent's navy even noticing their presence.

RoLa wrote:
Additionally T1 subs should get an aditional slow loading volley of torps:
- 4 torps 75 damage each / +5 dps / 60s reload

Something like this might work.

Or, if the damage shouldn't be changed, at least make them faster, so you can use them to harass, attack unescorted enemy reinforcements, undefended naval facs, etc. They need something.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 10 Dec 2015, 18:33

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-12-10T04:23:42+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
TheKoopa wrote:Aren't deestroyers IRL specifically made to be anti-sub?

Yes, but destroyers in supcom are closer to IRL battleships, which have been almost totally phased out. Modern destroyers have torpedoes, missiles, and then defenses.

Not really, Destroyers are more like easy targets for subs most of the time... unless you involve their helos, ASW aircraft etc. Best anti submarine platform is ultimately another sub.

As for Supcom subs: what bothers me is the fact how long 1 T1 sub takes to kill one frigate, by the time it's dead, it would have been able to do quite a bit of damage to e.g. expanding engies or mexes on the coast.

Statistics: Posted by da_monstr — 10 Dec 2015, 04:23

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-12-09T22:20:52+02:00

Subs can only hit submerged stuff (other subs, HARMS and mexes if you play certain maps) and surface stuff (ships and UEF/Cyb engies. UEF is special because it can also hit Aeon/Sera engies if it surfaces).

Let's analyze the first job:
Other subs, most likely at T1 (1 point)
HARMS, mostly a suicide mission (0 points)
Underwater mexes, highly situational (.5 points because i'm generous)

Result: 1.5/3

Second job:
Other ships, outclassed past t1 and only because frigates don't have torpedoes (.5 because i'm generous)
Engies: guess what? Frigates do it better (again: .5)

Result 1/2

Statistics: Posted by zeroAPM — 09 Dec 2015, 22:20

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-12-09T21:58:54+02:00

I think the question should be... what is the purpose of subs? If we knew their purpose we could build them to do that.

It appears not to be antinavy, so that's probably why they suck so much at killing navy.

And if you watched a replay where someone spammed subs and lost to destroyers, that doesn't mean subs suck, it just means they don't know how to use them. Though subs do suck, that's like saying someone spammed AA and lost to tanks... doesn't mean AA sucks, just means that's not what AA is for.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 09 Dec 2015, 21:58

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-11-18T22:22:28+02:00

T1 and T2 Submarines should get first strike advantage. Make them cloaked and stealthed when submerged until they fire or move like selen.
Additionally T1 subs should get an aditional slow loading volley of torps:
- 4 torps 75 damage each / +5 dps / 60s reload

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=10929&start=20#p112684

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 18 Nov 2015, 22:22

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-11-18T21:54:05+02:00

i kinda like idea cause subs are slightly underused

as addictional reason why subs are underused is t2 torp bomber, cheaper than t1 sub and one-shots it

if anyone gonna do anything, don't forget to nerf rail guns range on those t1 subs, why the hell they have more range than frigs anyway? xD

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 18 Nov 2015, 21:54

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-11-18T20:20:18+02:00

Zsombi wrote:
Hmm.. wel, I kinda see subs as I see inties, fighters and asf in Air. I think subs should have a similar role in the water, it doesn't have to turn into a spam fest like in air but they should still me much more useful than now.

Also, you just cannot micro against antinavy because all such projectiles track their target.

You can get under the destro, and avoid his torpedo defense. It's even possible to get at a range,where sub torpedo works, and destro torpedo defense doesn't.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 18 Nov 2015, 20:20

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-11-18T18:48:52+02:00

Hmm.. wel, I kinda see subs as I see inties, fighters and asf in Air. I think subs should have a similar role in the water, it doesn't have to turn into a spam fest like in air but they should still me much more useful than now.

Also, you just cannot micro against antinavy because all such projectiles track their target.

Statistics: Posted by Zsombi — 18 Nov 2015, 18:48

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-11-15T08:12:40+02:00

give t1 sub a small damage boost. thats all i see here

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 15 Nov 2015, 08:12

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-11-14T04:53:51+02:00

TheKoopa wrote:
Aren't deestroyers IRL specifically made to be anti-sub?

Yes, but destroyers in supcom are closer to IRL battleships, which have been almost totally phased out. Modern destroyers have torpedoes, missiles, and then defenses.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 14 Nov 2015, 04:53

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-11-14T04:37:34+02:00

Aren't deestroyers IRL specifically made to be anti-sub?

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 14 Nov 2015, 04:37

Re: Buff antinavy.

2015-11-13T17:14:07+02:00

I don't think they really need a buff, I see all subs getting used pretty often. Yeah, t1 subs generally aren't good but the rest are quite viable. They can be op quite easily with some buffs.

Statistics: Posted by JaggedAppliance — 13 Nov 2015, 17:14