Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-28T06:40:44+02:00

yeah nah simmer down ol cob

Statistics: Posted by biass — 28 Oct 2018, 06:40

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-27T18:43:47+02:00

I'd have to stop you right there Dunstklinge. Betraying the community more than GPG ever could? Do you realize it has been over a decade after the release of the first game? So what if there's a unit with abilities that weren't in the original release? Who is going to complain at this point onwards? Oh right, the "community" of grown children with so much time on their hands that hard working individuals with goals and a focus can't make someone to satisfy their corporate bootlicking antics. And that's really what this is coming down to. The Seraphim t3 ground army is weak! Tanks that hit the ground more often than the intended targets, small AOE on arty and basically nothing special about the entire tree save t3 mobile shields. I never played the Seraphim vanilla, not because I didn't like their aesthetic, which I do. It is because almost all their units are do nothing special and have no chance against t3 of other armies. Or you could argue that was the point of the developer to stay in 2 with bots, but I would argue again of why is it important to have a useless tech?

The Flying Walker almost feels like it was an intended unit and maybe if people think it is as unbalanced as it is, putting it as a Quantum Gateway only unit might solve the problem, but as far as balance goes, it checks out. Stop crying about it, you're so sad looking at this point.

Statistics: Posted by Azure_Spectrum — 27 Oct 2018, 18:43

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-26T21:44:11+02:00

i was talking about the balance team having to deal with people like you and guys like dunstklinge.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 26 Oct 2018, 21:44

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-26T20:38:05+02:00

keyser wrote:
it's when you are criticized from extremist of both opposite sides, that you know you are in the good spot.

Yes! i feel the love.

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 26 Oct 2018, 20:38

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-26T18:09:21+02:00

it's when you are criticized from extremist of both opposite sides, that you know you are in the good spot.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 26 Oct 2018, 18:09

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-26T17:04:50+02:00

man, i wish the devs would have shown this will to conserve FA when the vet change came around.

I think this quote sums up this thread pretty well:

Azure_Spectrum wrote:
at this point literally a decade later after release, what harm is left to be done?

There is all the harm left to be done. FAF exists because a small but dedicated group of people loves FA, and every update that changes how FAF works removes a part of the reason why it exists in the first place. FAF is not its own unique strategy game that tries to attract new players with its unique ideas, and it would fail miserably if it tried to be; FAF only tries to keep FA alive, and it did so for many years now. An update that changes the game without an extremly urgent reason is quite literally suicide.

Engi mod and T3 AA were both designed to touch on FAFs gameplay as little as possible while solving a percieved huge issue, and still they recieved a lot of criticism from people who did not agree with the scale of the issue or that the solution was in the spirit of FA. Even the veterancy change at least declared some kind of "issue" that it was trying to "solve" (which i disagree with vehemently and that made me quit the game, but at least it was trying to act in a preserving manner).

This is just plain out declaring that it doesnt like FA and wants it to change. Adding this unit would be betraying the FA community more than GPG ever could.

Statistics: Posted by Dunstklinge — 26 Oct 2018, 17:04

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-26T13:03:15+02:00

I understand what you are trying to achieve with these comments, though I don’t think they will change anything. People play the game how they want, and if they don’t want to play with your mod because it has several problems, you cannot blame them for opposing the idea of integrating it. Telling them that they are old-fashioned or just don’t like modders altogether, is delusional and simply a wrong accusation. In the end you complained about people bashing your design choices while you bash their respective opinions just as much and just label them as “irrational – because unprogressive”.

The first stage of doing anything really, is to think about what you can realistically achieve with your work and the underlying basic principles you want to utilize. Your goal was to integrate your unit into the game, which has a very low chance of occurring. I appreciate your work, but in this case, you are just setting yourself up for a disappointment. Not only was your goal unrealistic, but also your design principles counterintuitive regarding your goals. If my goal was to get a certain unit integrated, I would not include mechanisms which could completely break the balance or do not fit into the general theme of the game. I would “play it save” in this case.
What you did however, was making a mod which is very impressive as of itself, though sadly you seemingly did not think much about what your goal realistically could be and how to achieve it. You seem to have a good skillset and ofc you can do whatever you like, if you want to make real impact though, you should work on things that expand the game in ways other than units. Like adding better visuals or working on helpful UI mods (which might even be integrated).

Basically, it boils down to the "toy" metaphor the other guy mentioned. People like new toys. Some people however are fine with the toys they already have and don’t want other toys, since they do not like them. All this might sound hard but that is how it is.

PS: There are other options to get your mod played a lot, apart from integrating it. You can add it to a modpack or suggest making it ranked.

Statistics: Posted by ____ — 26 Oct 2018, 13:03

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-26T01:45:43+02:00

all those things are cool. I like the reflecting projectiles one.

I just don't want it integrated cos I like the base game as it is.

you have the power to make amazing add on mods. people would love experimental that u can upgrade.

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 26 Oct 2018, 01:45

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-25T23:23:21+02:00

What i find Ironic, is that the Seasoned players decry mods on what was originally designed to be a moddable platform.
Sure folks come here to play FA but what does FA or FAF really mean in a world where the game is largely an unknown?

As Azure stated, what does this hurt?

By not accepting modding your missing out on things such as this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5G5Ab792fg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV8YBXVxxeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9NGQC5rr0c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFMtjSJAZB8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdbIQ4vHkMs

Granted none of this is "balanced" an any meaningful way but this was just a ruff example of whats possible.

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 25 Oct 2018, 23:23

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-25T21:29:57+02:00

I'm going to weigh in here, less than someone with as much experience in the game like you guys and more of a fan of the series. What Resin said holds true, GPG did sell out the core community and we likely will not be seeing a sequel anytime soon. If SC2 is an indication of how corporate entities care about the fanbase, than at this point literally a decade later after release, what harm is left to be done? The unit is balanced and I will explain from my personal experience with it in game after trying to see if I could use it in a "broken" manner.

The unit has great offensive capabilities and range, but lacks speed both on ground and in the air. When transformed, without proper air control the units lose to even t1 interceptors as the landing sequence takes about 2-3 seconds to re-deploy them as ground units. So this makes their transformation usage highly situational as any intelligent ai or player could easily counter them, making their added mass and energy loss devastating early to mid game. And while their range is good on ground, they can easily get out ranged by t2/t3 arty and defenses. It is impossible to rush this unit in with proper air cover and not get it attacked by a gunships or bombers, both cheaper and faster than this unit.

So how is this not balanced?

P.S: Mr. Frenchmen is right, Chris really should see what you done, the weapon effects and even the model are top notch!

Statistics: Posted by Azure_Spectrum — 25 Oct 2018, 21:29

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-25T15:35:29+02:00

I'd like to comend you both for responses that were though out and well articulated. It's not often that I see this online much-less for that matter here.

Now as for the unit(s) in question, it was a combined effort of some talented people who were very passionate about the game. That was until GPG sold us all out and the darker side of the forums took over what was left. So yeah, I no longer hold hope that anything created would ever be used in a meaningful way. Now that being said, mod anything you want to your hearts content... I no longer care.

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 25 Oct 2018, 15:35

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-25T13:24:37+02:00

Hi Resin_Smoker,

It seems that i missed this seraphim model. The chain lightning gun is really cool, neaty and the concept of land transformation to air is so fun. Hybrid role unit is a nice idea. The unit looking and the lightning chain suits well with the seraphim feeling.
As i already did it often before , i will take a look at the unit script to understand theses features. If you agree, i can reuse part of your work in my mod (especially the chain reaction could be a cool hero power).

I'm sad that resin_smoker you got this feelings about the FA community. As a modder we should not care too much about people negative reactions on mod creation. When someone says 'i don't want a new unit on FAF after you worked on it 100+ hours', this appears to be a really disrespectful reaction. But simply most don't realize the work done and the feelings behind. So community is not a whole and don't forget that some people love your work, and they want more of it ! And maybe chris Taylor could see your work and would say 'Well done on your seraphim unit, resin'.

About the FAF jedi concil direction, we should be grateful for people that share their time to admin it. We should focus on the positive part. This is not perfect but as a modder we should stay humble. We must be realistic and not think that our mod will change FAF direction and bring astonishing excitation. Even if ideas and concepts are genius, history tell us that a lot were not recognized at their creation time. So don't care about political decisions on FAF direction.

Focus on creativity and on people that support your work !

Statistics: Posted by Franck83 — 25 Oct 2018, 13:24

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-25T13:18:11+02:00

The community doesn't have it out for modders, as much as it seems so between here and also for EQ mod, noone can argue about having the option to add lil bits and bobs to the game as they please. I've even made mods and have the ability to make units myself, and the resources to help you start are plentiful and well created.

If you missed it, our dearest Resin has neglected to remind you that this unit was intended for the base game, not as a separate addition, this does - as all integrations do - remove your choice to play with that "toy" or not. You're not longer playing FA, you're playing FA + the extra unit.
I don't have to tell you this sparks controversy, people came here to play Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance for the most part as they were promised and extra little perversions of the game detract from that, people are still a little peeved about T3 MAA, and engimod too. Do they have a right to be? I think so.

As for balance, unit design can be a little tough for people who don't have a lot of other voices or a project scope laid out in front of them and this unit, speaking about it's inclusions into the main game, clearly didn't have one. This has no less than three unique abilities and weapons which is mostly unprecedented along the entirety of supcom as a series and cover a massive range of uses including CC for low tier units, piercing shields(why is this, again? why not make a shield buster missile platform unit?) and yes the transforming ability. Which does mean as soon as seraphim hits t3 they no longer need to use a transport and a lot of resources to drop t3 units across rivers, onto plateaus, all that stuff. The "it needs micro" is a nice way to mask it but clicking a button when it leaves spawn, a move command to a plateau and then another transform button when it gets there isn't too hard, especially when people inevitably create a hotkey and some kind of UI mod to reselect it when it transforms. It's probably less micro then just loading a brick onto a transport, just over a shorter amount of time.

As for community reception, it really does suck but when you present something to people you really cannot turn sour when people have a negative reception else fence sitters might decide to side against you because of "tone", trust me, i know what it's like.

But uh..

Spoiler: show

And thats not counting this page.

Dear resin: i know what it's like, you made it and you presented it, its your 'baby' and it sucks to know what you worked on for so hard isn't liked - ive had that experience. But try and detach yourself away from your ideas and think about what you would say if someone made the exact same thing and it got implemented. Imagine your dual gap game where one t3 unit flies in before you get omni and then snipes all your shields? where you have to spend mass on transports to do some drop on badlands but some guy can use this unit to just jump up for free? What if are not a seraphim fan or, what if another faction got this unit instead?
I know you'll just have the same old response. but hey, you already dug your grave a while back it seems.

Statistics: Posted by biass — 25 Oct 2018, 13:18

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-25T11:02:18+02:00

Point blank, with peoples fragile little ego’s they really hate to lose a match. It’s to the point where they’d rather play a known quantity rather than possibly allow any form of change. It’s this asinine belief thats commonly referred to as “balance” by some of the more seasoned players. Another way of putting it would be, anything that changes said balence upsets their proven strategies. Thus diminishing the petty joy they get from stomping new players who aren't yet in the know. This has the direct effect of making FAF a very small and sour community of elitist pricks that prey on new players.

Sure there’s a mods section but whens the last time you’ve seen anything signifigant released? Most of the content that comes out either rehashes or updates something thats from the days of GPG.

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 25 Oct 2018, 11:02

Re: Proposed Seraphim Unit for FAF V1.2

2018-10-25T04:59:23+02:00

Wow this community really has it out for modders, I have no idea why? Think of it like this.

If strategy games are like digital fields where people control various units using a mouse, than it is basically like playing with toys. Why is having another toy so bad?

Statistics: Posted by Azure_Spectrum — 25 Oct 2018, 04:59