Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2015-01-07T01:28:25+02:00

Neutrino wrote:
Does this mod still exist and if so where can I get it from? Was there no appetite for incorporating it into FAF core?

The mod is available in the Vault under the same name. "Submarine Rebalance Mod". I have not asked for it to be incorporated into FAF as this would need to be based on a much wider consensus.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 07 Jan 2015, 01:28

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2015-01-06T15:57:16+02:00

Does this mod still exist and if so where can I get it from? Was there no appetite for incorporating it into FAF core?

Statistics: Posted by Neutrino — 06 Jan 2015, 15:57

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2015-01-02T01:17:23+02:00

Resin_Smoker wrote:
I'd suggest having sonar stealth only when the subs are not moving. (As in real life, a still sub is near impossible to detect)

I like this idea because the only thing sonar can do that a radar cannot do is detect submerged units without stealth and at that point you could just remove the stealth of the subs, reduce sonar to the range of the underwatervision, reduce the underwatervision and use radar to detect ships at long range (maybe give sonarplatform radar).
This solves the problem you have with the planes but still makes subs more stealthy without giving them stealth.

So what do you think about this approach to sub balance?

Statistics: Posted by DeimosEvotec — 02 Jan 2015, 01:17

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2015-01-01T23:27:45+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
geting more range on spy plane omny is not good solution, on t2 is not spy palne so its ussles to fix problem that something need scout subs, and it make problems on t3 where its ussed for more thinks like only founding subs.

It may not be the most elegant solution but I couldn't see any other way of solving the problem. Because, for a unit to detect a sonar stealth unit it needs to have either:
1. Underwater vision
2. Omni

To use Underwater vision a unit must be under the water, and this is built into the game engine. Therefore the only means for an aircraft to detect a stealth submarine is Omni sensing. Clearly giving T1 air scouts or T2 torpedo bombers Omni would be broken and totally change the game. So I had to stick with Spy Planes as the only possible means of aerial detection. The radius was increased to allow them to sweep a useful area.

This means that a player suck out of the water and fighting subs needs to:
1. Tech to T3 air and get some spy planes
2. Get an ACU or SCU sensor upgrade
4. Make an Omni sensor on their shore
5. Build a Sonar installation in a safe location.

Also bear in mind that a player with T3 navy is able to make Spy Planes from their carriers. So they are reasonably accessible for naval players.

Also add energy consume for stealth on subs.

I might be able to add this. The problem is that there is a bug with the unit scripts. Where the energy consumption doesn't start when the unit is first built. I had intended to create an energy consumption cost, but, until I can figure out what causes this bug I have remove it.

and cruiser is supost to have vision, underwater too. cruiser make huge vision suport underwater, dont let be frigate the only answer to subs stealth.

Of course this is open to discussion. But I regarded the Cruiser as a target for submarines. Cruisers are essentially there to protect the fleet from aircraft and missiles. As well as giving good radar coverage. I reduced their sonar because the unit needs to have an "Achilles Heal". It doesn't make sense that a unit which is very good at AA, and locating surface vessels, and shore bombardment, should also be good at finding submarines. I think it's too much capability for one unit.

torpedo defens also need have underwater vision. Its one of main defense against subs, cant be not a posible for it to fire on subs.

They still do. Just not as much as they did before. Underwater vision for a torpedo defence was reduced to 35 which will allow it to kill a T1 submarine unaided. In order to use their full range they require the additional vision range. Which can be provided by a sonar array.

sonar also can have on all tech some omny range. on T1 small something little bigger as frigate underwater vision. on T2 biger, and on T3 it alredy exist.

I don't agree with putting Omni on T1 or T2 sonar. Maybe T3... But honestly I don't think there is any need. The impact this would have is to also function for detection of aircraft (as a radar). I suppose one positive aspect is that submarines would instead appear a grey blobs and not be identified. Whereas underwater vision gives positive identification.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 01 Jan 2015, 23:27

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2015-01-01T16:12:01+02:00

geting more range on spy plane omny is not good solution, on t2 is not spy palne so its ussles to fix problem that something need scout subs, and it make problems on t3 where its ussed for more thinks like only founding subs.

Also add energy consume for stealth on subs.
and cruiser is supost to have vision, underwater too. cruiser make huge vision suport underwater, dont let be frigate the only answer to subs stealth.

torpedo defens also need have underwater vision. Its one of main defense against subs, cant be not a posible for it to fire on subs.

sonar also can have on all tech some omny range. on T1 small something little bigger as frigate underwater vision. on T2 biger, and on T3 it alredy exist.

gl

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 01 Jan 2015, 16:12

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2015-01-01T15:10:12+02:00

NewForumAccount wrote:
The biggest flaw of this mod is that watervision also spots submerged monkeylords and renders them useless on all watermaps.
A possible solution to re-balance the cybran units who "lost" their stealth is to increase speed (but even with that and better torpdefense the monkeylord would still be nerfed)
Other factional imbalances (due to more important role of sonar) :
- seraphim lacks T3 sonar
- cybran (cybran and aeon) t2 sonar can be sniped by one torpbomber (T2 fighterbomber), others need more.

Thanks for your comments. Yes this will change interactions with the Monkey Lord. But I don't think it will make the unit useless. Because, it still has stealth, much like any submarine. But unlike other bottom walking amphibious units (which are still detectable to sonar). Though it might make changes to the meta-game which would make it more difficult for the Monkeylord (ML). Considering that players will now be actively on the lookout for submerged and stealthed units.

To address your point directly the underwater vision environment for the ML is now different. Whereas before it could be detected by any ship. Now, it is only the frigates and submarines which it needs to worry about. Sonar arrays may still be a problem. But the best detection range you'll get with them is 100 range. Assuming that the sonar array is actually located at the beach you are attacking (and not with the main battle fleet). Even if we should assume the player has torp defences, and a T1 or T2 sonar at home, the detection range is only marginally greater than the firing range for torp defences. This is still not a lot of warning.

This is of course assuming you haven't taken the trouble of sniping those detection units or structures. Because without them this mod is actually a buff for the ML.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 01 Jan 2015, 15:10

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2015-01-01T00:51:25+02:00

I'd suggest having sonar stealth only when the subs are not moving. (As in real life, a still sub is near impossible to detect)

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 01 Jan 2015, 00:51

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2015-01-01T00:29:06+02:00

The biggest flaw of this mod is that watervision also spots submerged monkeylords and renders them useless on all watermaps.
A possible solution to re-balance the cybran units who "lost" their stealth is to increase speed (but even with that and better torpdefense the monkeylord would still be nerfed)
Other factional imbalances (due to more important role of sonar) :
- seraphim lacks T3 sonar
- cybran (cybran and aeon) t2 sonar can be sniped by one torpbomber (T2 fighterbomber), others need more.

Statistics: Posted by NewForumAccount — 01 Jan 2015, 00:29

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2014-12-31T22:06:37+02:00

Version 4 Update.

- Reduced T1 Submarine water vision to 35
- Removed water vision from Air Scouts
- Increased Omni Radius on Spy Planes to 64 (because underwater vision doesn't work on planes)

Overall feedback from game testing has been positive. As this mod now increases the scope for skilful play using submarines while still maintaining the dominance of Destroyers in their anti-submarine role. Hopefully these changed sensor dynamics will achieve greater acceptance and result in a rewarding gameplay experience.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 31 Dec 2014, 22:06

Re: Submarine Rebalance Mod

2014-12-31T13:49:25+02:00

Version 2 Updated. Thanks to feedback from manread and others.

Changes are as follows:
- T3 Torpedo Ambushing System "Harms": Water Vision = 65 (up from 45)
- T1 Air Scouts: Water Vision = 42 (up from nil)
- T3 Spy Planes: Water Vision = 64 (up from nil)

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 31 Dec 2014, 13:49

Submarine Rebalance Mod

2014-12-31T04:46:23+02:00

Hi All,

The purpose of this mod is to play test an alternative submarine balance for FAF. It does not alter HP, DPS or any of the damage dealing characteristics of any units. The purpose of this mod is to render submarines more difficult to detect and increase their value as raiding units.

This mod gives all T1, T2 and T3 submarines sonar stealth capability. It also changes the underwater vision and sonar radius characteristics of many of the naval vessels and sonar platforms. The underwater vision radius of ASW units, such as Destroyers and Battle Cruisers, is now slightly less than their firing range and the vision radius of submarines and sub-hunters has been increased. Although the frigate has no ASW weapons, it's underwater vision radius has been increased so that it can function as a spotter for other vessels.

While other vessels, such as Battleships, Carriers and Cruisers have had their underwater vision significantly reduced. Making them vulnerable to submarine attack. Sonar Platforms and torpedo defences have had their underwater vision increased such that they will still be effective counters. T2 and T3 sonar arrays are now an essential tool for locating and identifying submarines.

A full list of changes is as follows:
- T1 Subs: Sonar Stealth = True, Water Vision = 60 (up from 32)
- T1 Frigates: Water Vision = 45 (up from 16)
- T2 Sub Hunters "Vesper" & "Barracuda": Sonar Stealth = True, Water Vision = 60 (up from 45), Energy cost = 0 (Down from 30 for Barracuda)
- T2 UEF Torpedo Boat "Cooper": Water Vision = 60 (up from 40)
- T3 Seraphim Sub Hunter: Sonar Stealth = True, Water Vision = 80 (up from 45)
- T3 Missile Subs "Silencer", "Ace", and "Plan B": Sonar Stealth = True, Energy cost = 0 (Down from 200 for Plan B), Water Vision = 45 (up from 35)
- Destroyers: Sonar Radius = 45 (up from 37), Water Vision = 25 (Down from 45)
- Cruisers: Sonar Radius = 60 (down from 120), Water Vision = 16 (down from 60)
- Battleships, Carriers and Missile Ships: Water Vision = 16 (down from 50, 36 and 50 respectively)
- T1 and T2 Torpedo Defences: Water Vision = 35 (down from 45)
- T1 Sonar: Water Vision = 60 (up from nil)
- T2 Sonar: Water Vision = 80 (up from nil)
- T3 Sonar: Water Vision = 100 (up from 25)

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 31 Dec 2014, 04:46