Forged Alliance Forever

Re: NEVER build frigates

2015-01-06T16:55:48+02:00

Up to you to remain with your mistakes

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 06 Jan 2015, 16:55

Re: NEVER build frigates

2015-01-06T06:02:55+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Again building t1 subs in the purpose of killing eng is a huge waste.

Engineers are capable of bringing in huge amounts of reclaim. So engineers on reclaim missions need to be killed immediately and it is worth suffering a cost penalty to do so. In a developed naval battle with Battleship standoffs fighting over reclaim fields. Submarines can get in underneath the umbrella of Battleship fire and kill engineers.

Not to mention that they are essential for making high tech ships. A T1 submarine raid on an unprotected naval yard can be very damaging. T1 subs kill an engineer with every volley, with minimal overkill. So they are very efficient at killing engineers.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 06 Jan 2015, 06:02

Re: NEVER build frigates

2015-01-05T20:35:03+02:00

Yes, you're way WAY better off building only frigates than only t1 subs, and once there is t2 better not build t1 subs at all.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 05 Jan 2015, 20:35

Re: NEVER build frigates

2015-01-05T17:04:17+02:00

Again building t1 subs in the purpose of killing eng is a huge waste.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 05 Jan 2015, 17:04

Re: NEVER build frigates

2015-01-04T13:21:09+02:00

T1 build should not be dictated by a 1:1 ratio. Instead, it should be decided by what you want to accomplish and how you wish to manage the transition into T2 and T3 navy. Which ought to be your main focus.

T1 submarines are primarily useful against engineers and your decision to do this should based on your opponent faction. UEF and Cybran engineers can be killed with torpedos, so, against these factions the submarine is a good choice. A submarine run-by against naval facilities can delay a T2 development, force a Torpedo defence, or stop expanding engineers. The tactic is still viable against Seraphim and Aeon, but, this requires that the submarines surface and use their deck guns. They should be treated much like mech. marines and as such they have a limited window of usefulness.

Sometimes, players will leave some undefended engineers on the water, even in the late game. Which are performing a reclaim mission after a major battle. So dispatching a small expendable force of T1 submarines to a previous battle area can often deal good results even in the later game stages. The target for T1 submarines is nearly always going to be engineers. They are rarely effective against other units, and simply lack the firepower to quickly destroy larger ships.

T1 Frigates are more useful for gaining Intel and denying island expansions. They are good for hunting down expanding engineers of any faction, as well as countering hover unit spam. Such as the Aeon Aurora or the Seraphim floating artillery. In a UEF vs. Seraphim scenario I would go with Frigates exclusively, and maintain some reasonable number of frigates within the main fleet for protection against hover units. Though the Valliant Destroyer, and Neptune Battle cruiser can also perform this function well. Like many other commenters have said so far. The best use for frigates in a surface fleet is to provide a cheap damage sponge for absorbing enemy shots.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 04 Jan 2015, 13:21

Re: NEVER build frigates

2015-01-01T19:26:42+02:00

Frigs are especially useful if you have a faction whose destroyers need to be dodged. For example you are cybran, so he wants to dodge your destro with his destro. Every time he dodges his focus fire will go to your frigs, which have a lot of cheap HP. If you have no frigs his destro will fire on your destro, and that will not be good for you.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 01 Jan 2015, 19:26

Re: NEVER build frigates

2015-01-01T17:46:02+02:00

Flynn wrote:
That power was only temporary for RAS. I meant to reclaim all my T1 power, yes. But even after RAS it is a good idea to keep excess power when mexes are at T3 they really start to burn power and with T3 air and navy

Even if u go for RAS, try to not overbuild power. It costs a significant amount of mass.

And after ras there is no reason to keep t1. None. If reeeaaalllllyy you need extra power, convert the t1 mass into a t3 pgen, if not reclaim the t1 anyway and invest in anything u need. Bottom line, reclaim the t1, t2 always. Double RAS can support t3 air prod with 60-70(i forgot the exact figure) t1 eng FYI.

Watch some good setons and how back players manage their energy, and how their reclaim of the power is optimised. It's applicable to many maps .

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 01 Jan 2015, 17:46

Re: NEVER build frigates

2015-01-01T17:33:51+02:00

ZLO_RD wrote:
2) you make frigates cause they are strong against destroyers and they dodge UEF/Aeon/Cybran destro shots well, but sera destroyers do not miss, they can shoot backwards, and they can submerge, so they are basicly greatest counter to any frigates.

Actually frigs are also quite useful against sera destro.
Submerged sera destros are pretty shit and only wins versus UEF. But even that its only true as long as UEF doesnt have cooper. Then its a matter of overlapping the shields properly to protect the coopers.

A decent sera player would submerge destros against a uef fleet go below shields and try to emmerge the destors to kill the cooper and the shields. At that point the frigs are quite useful to kill the sera destros, especially when the sera navy will be microed. Destros will lose their target focus.

The actual problem is that it costs more as uef to compete with sera at t2 on an *attacking* move.

On a defensive position uef is good enough. Sera will have a hard time breaking a shielded (talking about a few there shield boats, o need for a legion) navy joined with a few coopers, along a shore. T2 torp launchers just murder sera destro, remember this and they cost half in mass;). Add to that that t1 torp launcher is fucking OP against sera destro (most of the time the beams cant hit the launcher).

Turtling as UEF against sera navy is quite easy, as long as the players are even. Turtling against cybran or aeon is quite a different story. They can kill ur shit out of ur range (destros and t2 torps dont have enough range), and t1-2 uef navy cant compete with cyb or aeon for same investment, not even close.

i don't think suggesting torps against frigs is a good move. 2k hp per frigate is a lot to kill for torp bombers.
Investment wise u're in a better position with frigs+ints than t2 torps + ints. If u need torps against frigs, you are too late and should have started hover tanks. Especially as sera, avoid torps at all cost if possible. They are absolute garbage.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 01 Jan 2015, 17:33

Re: NEVER build frigates

2014-12-24T16:33:55+02:00

Very helpful replies ZLO regarding the frigate use. I am a bit frustrated because I used to build fleets of t1 subs and never built frigates and that always went well for me. But now I am trying more advanced tactics hence the frigate use. So if I am using frigates I should harass and try to hit him from multiple locations with a lot of different groups of frigates, once he is beginning to get a hold on the situation I should already have several destroyers out and then keep my frigates with my destroyers thereafter.

That didn't work in this replay obviously because he had more eco and I didn't realise my engineers weren't assisting my mexes, but in theory it makes sense as long as my eco is equal to my enemy's eco or more than it thanks.

You started to reclaim your t1 power, but for some reason you stopped after the first row while still overproducing 1300 power. I assume that you switched to microing some units and than forgot about it.

If you are tired/stressed you should eiter make a pause or try some rush or snipe strategy, because ecoing allows for more mistakes when you have lowered attention.

That power was only temporary for RAS. I meant to reclaim all my T1 power, yes. But even after RAS it is a good idea to keep excess power when mexes are at T3 they really start to burn power and with T3 air and navy. Interesting idea about strategy when tired A lot of the time when I play this game I am in sort of a daze. I find that the micro alone takes up all of my mental capacity.

Thanks for the help. Needless to say I was very frustrated when I posted this.

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 24 Dec 2014, 16:33

Re: NEVER build frigates

2014-12-23T23:08:57+02:00

i can explain why you would build frigs on white fire cyb vs cyb
1) you make frigs, he makes subs
2) lets say you are in worst situation so you didn't kill anything with your frigs
3) subs corner you in your base and you had to make 2 t1 torp defences
4) you both start to make destroyers and he start to make frigates cause he want to have radar when fight happens
5) when fight happen there can be two ways, close combat and fight from range
- from range his destros shoot your frigs and destros, and your destros shoot his frigs and destros
and his subs will attemt to go in and kill your frigs, but then your destros can use their torp dps and kill subs pretty easy...
- in close combat you just have more frigs and your frigs gonna shoot his destros, that may turn pretty bad for him

at least that is how it usually happen for me, or at least it is how i imagine it
but there could be some clever usage of subs with good micro and sniping and kiting your frigates, but you can still use t2 air really well you kill those subs and since he has to kite you, you can get your destros in position to shoot his island mexes...
and ofc there are many situation when something wierd happens

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 23 Dec 2014, 23:08

Re: NEVER build frigates

2014-12-23T23:05:24+02:00

There is no set strategy or unit combination that will win the game for you. Other than what ZLO said, be scouting and trying to counter what he is doing.

There is a trainer team that will be happy to help you if you PM any of them. They're there for free, you should use them. That being said, don't be obsessed with what people tell you, be it ZLO or Zock or Blackheart, just see for yourself what works and what does not. I think it should be pretty clear here that throwing your frigates against a player making subs does not work out well, especially when he outecoes and outtechs you.

I'm a trainer, I'll help you if you PM me in the lobby. I'd help you if I weren't a trainer anyway.....anyone would. No need to get so frustrated

Statistics: Posted by SneakySnake — 23 Dec 2014, 23:05

Re: NEVER build frigates

2014-12-23T22:50:51+02:00

You started to reclaim your t1 power, but for some reason you stopped after the first row while still overproducing 1300 power. I assume that you switched to microing some units and than forgot about it.

If you are tired/stressed you should eiter make a pause or try some rush or snipe strategy, because ecoing allows for more mistakes when you have lowered attention.

Statistics: Posted by NewForumAccount — 23 Dec 2014, 22:50

Re: NEVER build frigates

2014-12-23T22:40:25+02:00

i guess this advice does not always work

1) first of all frigates are good for little bit smaller maps but still they are usefull even on that 20 km too, you almost killed his t1 factory on his expansion and you can get some other mexes on islands
2) Here is the plan that i personally have in mind when i build many frigates:
- make early frigates to kill mexes on islands and treat his navy production so he have to make units, frigates or subs or t1 torp pd
- if you see subs try to run away from one place to another (from one island where you can attack stuff, like islands to another place) so subs only will be effective if your opponent really micoes them, cause if he just right clicks, subs will just chase and not attack
- if there are more subs, and running around map no longer works, just retreat and place single torp defence PD, maybe more than 1 if needed
- What is the point of all of that? you may deal damage with frigs, they may give important scouting info cause they have radar, and also they are more usefull than subs in later game stage.

also you can go fast to t2 air and even with not much eco spam few t2 torp bombers, they one-shot subs, and they have good speed and hard to kill even with interceptors especially without radar

SO, YOUR PROBLEM IS:
1) you are uef, your destroyers do not counter subs really well, you will have to make coopers witch is not easy to use
2) you make frigates cause they are strong against destroyers and they dodge UEF/Aeon/Cybran destro shots well, but sera destroyers do not miss, they can shoot backwards, and they can submerge, so they are basicly greatest counter to any frigates.

Oh, but... those are problems that you WOULD have, if you would not loose frigs to subs and then go to t2 stage, but instead you did loose frigates to subs and torp bombers and also you made 16 mass storages around t1 mexes, and build a lot of power long before you could use it
so your opponent had alot of subs, and t2 torp bombers killing your frigs that were making suicide attempts to kill something in enemy navy, you was generally behind in everything except maybe t1 air force

and another tip: when you select all t1 mexes and then start t2 upgraide and pause them you need to wait around 0.5 seconds before pausing them cause upgraide may not start sometimes if you pause to fast

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 23 Dec 2014, 22:40

NEVER build frigates

2014-12-23T21:29:16+02:00

Right I followed the pro advice on frigates I built one sub for every frigate and this is what happened. Despite my best attempts to stop him I was utterly smashed. I rage quitted when I saw his T3 air.

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 23 Dec 2014, 21:29