Forged Alliance Forever

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-09T12:44:49+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
Aurion wrote:Okay. If you send a frigate with your destroyers I'll torpedo bomb you and then my subs will stop you getting more. If you send air scouts I will have air control with interceptors and then I'll torpedo bomb you. If you send interceptors I have even more interceptors... Then I'll torpedo bomb you.

By the time you're finished that engagement you'll be thinking an early cruiser was a pretty good idea. The primary focus for my counter to destroyer rush is T2 air. Getting an early cruiser on station with the destroyer is essential for shutting me down. So the T1 subs I sent behind you were to counter that possibility.

Seeing as we are on Setons all this will have happened before 12 min. So you can't count on any ASF help.

Why the f*** wouldn't I have any interceptors?

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 09 Jan 2015, 12:44

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-09T07:40:20+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
Okay. If you send a frigate with your destroyers I'll torpedo bomb you and then my subs will stop you getting more. If you send air scouts I will have air control with interceptors and then I'll torpedo bomb you. If you send interceptors I have even more interceptors... Then I'll torpedo bomb you.

By the time you're finished that engagement you'll be thinking an early cruiser was a pretty good idea. The primary focus for my counter to destroyer rush is T2 air. Getting an early cruiser on station with the destroyer is essential for shutting me down. So the T1 subs I sent behind you were to counter that possibility.

Seeing as we are on Setons all this will have happened before 12 min. So you can't count on any ASF help.

I guess we must not play the same game.

Do you mind to show me this in game ? I mean you seem to be so confident about it, I'd like to learn from you

I promise I won't ask help for the air dude if u don't get also. Deal ?

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 09 Jan 2015, 07:40

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-09T02:19:20+02:00

Aurion wrote:
Hawkei wrote:
Aurion wrote:Isn't it pretty stupid to just build a cruiser as second t2 ship unless your opponent is afraid of water?

A cruiser as the 2nd or 3rd T2 ship is necessary on a Destroyer rush. Destroyers need the radar coverage and AA.

You'd build a cruiser for many things, but fighting destroyers and frigates is not one of those and radar coverage really isn't one of those (frigs, scouts, interceptors?).

Okay. If you send a frigate with your destroyers I'll torpedo bomb you and then my subs will stop you getting more. If you send air scouts I will have air control with interceptors and then I'll torpedo bomb you. If you send interceptors I have even more interceptors... Then I'll torpedo bomb you.

By the time you're finished that engagement you'll be thinking an early cruiser was a pretty good idea. The primary focus for my counter to destroyer rush is T2 air. Getting an early cruiser on station with the destroyer is essential for shutting me down. So the T1 subs I sent behind you were to counter that possibility.

Seeing as we are on Setons all this will have happened before 12 min. So you can't count on any ASF help.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 09 Jan 2015, 02:19

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-08T03:10:10+02:00

No uef is the exceptio’. T1 can be pretty good , they rape uef destros , if they're not covered by coopers.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 08 Jan 2015, 03:10

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-07T16:41:51+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
- don't build t1 subs or very few.

Does this advice include naval play as UEF? Since their T2 is lacking and you want T3 as soon as possible, the weakness is underwater stuff. Should I just mix some coopers and shields with a frigate fleet and hope to bridge the gap to T3?

Statistics: Posted by Col_Walter_Kurtz — 07 Jan 2015, 16:41

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-07T10:40:16+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
Aurion wrote:Isn't it pretty stupid to just build a cruiser as second t2 ship unless your opponent is afraid of water?

A cruiser as the 2nd or 3rd T2 ship is necessary on a Destroyer rush. Destroyers need the radar coverage and AA.

You'd build a cruiser for many things, but fighting destroyers and frigates is not one of those and radar coverage really isn't one of those (frigs, scouts, interceptors?).

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 07 Jan 2015, 10:40

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-06T17:16:15+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
-_V_- wrote:So you would send unit that costs 300mass + to be absolutely bashed?
doesnt sound like a good move to me....

What is it that you think will do the bashing? If you're being destroyer rushed, then he has left his naval yard open, and he has nothing else to stop those subs. I still think it is an excellent move. Because it does a number of things:

1. By sending submarines to his home naval factory, you threaten his build power. Without engineers it is impossible to match pace with T2 naval production. So he will be FORCED to react.
2. By placing your submarines in-between his naval yard and the destroyer he rushed you prevent any naval support units from reaching it. In order for a Destroyer to use it's full range it needs Intel support. In order to counter the expected torpedo bombing counter it needs AA support. Which are provided by the Frigate and the Cruiser. Both of which are countered by submarines.
3. According to The Art of War, "If you offer your enemy something he wants he shall surely take it". What counters T1 submarines better than anything else? Destroyers! But for that Destroyer to intercept the submarines it needs to be at his home base location. All the time he spends chasing your submarines is time which he is not shutting down your navy, or shelling your base.
4. It forces the other player to respond to YOU. Meaning you can take back the initiative in the fight.

This is very bad advice IMHO, and ln top of that you're assuming that the 2nd will be cruiser...

Sorry Vee. But I think the tactic is sound. Even more so, I have used it on numerous occasions and it works well. How do I handle a rushed Destroyer? I ignore it. I go for other stuff. I isolate the destroyer. Then I kill it with air.

Great. I'll' take the challenge , and then we post the replay here.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 06 Jan 2015, 17:16

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-06T17:11:57+02:00

Vee wrote:
Isn't island grabbing always best? It's far safer than ecoing, and there are 5 mexes there which produces the same as 2.5 t2 mex upgrades. So if you get your t1 mexes on your island 1 minute later, you have to get 2.5 t2 mex upgrades 1 minute earlier to be even. Since it costs far less than 2.5 t2 mexes to grab your island, I think you end up with more mass if you grab your island faster.

& I really don't agree with not microing frigs. If he is rushing and has more units, it is vital to keep every one of your units alive as long as possible. As soon as your units die he starts shooting your factory build point or engineers and then it's game over.

Well it's quite hard to grab the island from a good player. From beach your build(or luck) has to be much better to make up for the distance problem. But sure if u can, it's good.

One good counter to island grabbing by beach is for rocks to switch plan and steal mexes from beach, drop 6 t1, etc...
It will be way more difficult for beach to hold the island when there's growing cancer in his own base.

The main danger for rocks when island is lost, is to be denied the waters. Rocks has very shit access to waters and this can lose to a navy loss pretty fast .

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 06 Jan 2015, 17:11

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-06T17:04:04+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
Aurion wrote:Isn't it pretty stupid to just build a cruiser as second t2 ship unless your opponent is afraid of water?

A cruiser as the 2nd or 3rd T2 ship is necessary on a Destroyer rush. Destroyers need the radar coverage and AA.

No. It's not.t1 scouts are cheap , you should check lol. And for AA ints are amazing.
I personally never build a cruiser on a navy rush until i hold the ground near the enemy shore. One cruiser, is one more destroyer from ur opponent and that often turns out bad .

Obviously it depends how far behind is ur opponent in terms of build power (whether he eco whored too much, or u bombed his eng etc.).

Also since we speak of setons, your first cruiser out will probably get sniped in one shot if it's out after min 11. Solace would snipe it and even possibly survive.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 06 Jan 2015, 17:04

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-06T05:53:10+02:00

Aurion wrote:
Isn't it pretty stupid to just build a cruiser as second t2 ship unless your opponent is afraid of water?

A cruiser as the 2nd or 3rd T2 ship is necessary on a Destroyer rush. Destroyers need the radar coverage and AA.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 06 Jan 2015, 05:53

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-06T05:54:24+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
So you would send unit that costs 300mass + to be absolutely bashed?
doesnt sound like a good move to me....

What is it that you think will do the bashing? If you're being destroyer rushed, then he has left his naval yard open, and he has nothing else to stop those subs. I still think it is an excellent move. Because it does a number of things:

1. By sending submarines to his home naval factory, you threaten his build power. Without engineers it is impossible to match pace with T2 naval production. So he will be FORCED to react.
2. By placing your submarines in-between his naval yard and the destroyer he rushed you prevent any naval support units from reaching it. In order for a Destroyer to use it's full range it needs Intel support. In order to counter the expected torpedo bombing counter it needs AA support. Which are provided by the Frigate and the Cruiser. Both of which are countered by submarines.
3. According to The Art of War, "If you offer your enemy something he wants he shall surely take it". What counters T1 submarines better than anything else? Destroyers! But for that Destroyer to intercept the submarines it needs to be at his home base location. All the time he spends chasing your submarines is time which he is not shutting down your navy, or shelling your base.
4. It forces the other player to respond to YOU. Meaning you can take back the initiative in the fight.

Sorry Vee. But I think the tactic is sound. Even more so, I have used it on numerous occasions and it works well. How do I handle a rushed Destroyer? I ignore it. I go for other stuff. I isolate the destroyer. Then I kill it with air.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 06 Jan 2015, 05:46

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-05T23:24:23+02:00

Isn't island grabbing always best? It's far safer than ecoing, and there are 5 mexes there which produces the same as 2.5 t2 mex upgrades. So if you get your t1 mexes on your island 1 minute later, you have to get 2.5 t2 mex upgrades 1 minute earlier to be even. Since it costs far less than 2.5 t2 mexes to grab your island, I think you end up with more mass if you grab your island faster.

& I really don't agree with not microing frigs. If he is rushing and has more units, it is vital to keep every one of your units alive as long as possible. As soon as your units die he starts shooting your factory build point or engineers and then it's game over.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 05 Jan 2015, 23:24

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-05T23:05:51+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Hawkei wrote: 2. Send in T1 submarines around the destroyer to kill the engineers and delay supporting ships. It is likely that the second ship to leave the shipyard will be a cruiser. So having some subs intercepting it and killing engineers is bound to be very annoying. It could even force the destroyer home.

So you would send unit that costs 300mass + to be absolutely bashed?
doesnt sound like a good move to me....

You shouldnt even have that many t1 subs in the first place.

Isn't it pretty stupid to just build a cruiser as second t2 ship unless your opponent is afraid of water?

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 05 Jan 2015, 23:05

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-05T17:02:04+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
2. Send in T1 submarines around the destroyer to kill the engineers and delay supporting ships. It is likely that the second ship to leave the shipyard will be a cruiser. So having some subs intercepting it and killing engineers is bound to be very annoying. It could even force the destroyer home.

So you would send unit that costs 300mass + to be absolutely bashed?
doesnt sound like a good move to me....

You shouldnt even have that many t1 subs in the first place.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 05 Jan 2015, 17:02

Re: how to deal with destroyer rush on setons???

2015-01-04T14:33:48+02:00

codepants wrote:
I'm not a dedicated Seton's player so I don't know how often the beach gets the island. If you don't get the island then this assumption is probably true, you are behind. If you do get the island then you're ahead, and you should be getting out your first destroyer before him.

This assumption is incorrect. The naval tech lead is often dictated by whoever enters the water first. Not by whoever has the best economy. It is usually the case that a rock player will win the island because of their proximity. Sometimes they use this economic lead to get into the water quicker. Sometimes they get greedy and eco for too long.

I often find that with my Beach strategy the best option is to provide some resistance to the island. But I make sure that I get into the water first and deny that island with an early T2 naval unit.

As for countering a Destroyer rush the first key is early and persistent scouting. You MUST know their naval timing. If he is ecoing then you eco. If he gets into the water then make damn sure that you're in the water too.

Now, if he rushes tech. It means two things:

1. He has a lot of engineers assisting the factory
2. He doesn't have much T1 navy or air protecting it.

So, the ways you can stop him are as follows:

1. Raid his naval facility with a group of T1 bombers and interceptors. Kill off the assisting engineers to delay that destoyer.
2. Send in T1 submarines around the destroyer to kill the engineers and delay supporting ships. It is likely that the second ship to leave the shipyard will be a cruiser. So having some subs intercepting it and killing engineers is bound to be very annoying. It could even force the destroyer home.
3. Get T2 air and use Torp bombers.

Another thing you want to note is that destroyers have inferior radar range. So without frigate, cruiser or aerial scouting support, their ability to do damage will be impaired. It is always worth denying these units if possible. If he is bombarding your base a T2 PD will hold off a destroyer (as long as it doesn't have intel support). A T2 artillery will counter, but, it is hardly cost effective. Though if the destroyer stands still, it may be possible to use a TML against it. Though I don't recommend any of these options.

Remember. Not only is that destroyer costing you units and base structures. It is costing you time! You need to kill that sucker fast and get into the water. Which generally means you want T2 air and you want it fast.

While executing these counters. You should also consider air lifting some engineers to build a secret naval factory somewhere else. If your navy is significantly delayed. You will need to make a lot of T2 land factories and spam hover units to get back in the water.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 04 Jan 2015, 14:33