Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-14T15:16:26+02:00

gnatinator wrote:
You cannot go air as your first factory as Cybran

cannot is a hard word

You maybe cannot in the top ten range, but you surely can on medium to good, the rolloff time sucks, but it's not gamechanging. The real reason why you dont go first air as Cybran is because you want the aircontroll for jesters, and you dont get aircontroll with first air, you get it with second air.
I have seen people going first air as Cybran on maps which do favor first air, like White Fire, it is totally possible and unless you play top level you will hardly notice a real effect on the game.

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 14 Mar 2014, 15:16

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-14T14:49:27+02:00

The easiest way to explain these bomber is with a video, so look at this one, by The_Tempest:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxfSG7oFyFg

Usually you wouldn't find such bombers until reasonably high levels of play; it's really not common at all.
Seraphim and Aeon bombers have a single bomb that they drop, and as you can see, they can drop directly beneath, to the side slightly, or even backwards.
Cybran and UEF bombers are multiple bomblets, and because of this it's much much harder to hover bomb has the bombs will not drop where you want them too (generally they will split apart in all directions, making it useless). However, you can still micro them by slowing them down and turning to get multiple bombs off in a single pass.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 14 Mar 2014, 14:49

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-14T14:26:10+02:00

Hmm... a bit off-topic but I don't think it warrants another thread and the big "i'm new" thread is locked so : what does "double bomb drop" mean? I've seen a few people mention it (with some saying it's unfair, and others saying it's fine...) but nowhere does it explain exactly wtf it is, or how you do it. (assuming it's allowed, which seems to be the case) Especially since some of those threads can be quite old, I have no idea what's relevant and what isn't, like when people say it's less effective for Cybrans than other factions. Also what does "hoverbombing" mean? Sorry with those stupid questions, I've looked around and haven't found an exhaustive "glossary" or anything like that so there are quite a few terms I don't understand when people are talking... which makes it hard to use their advice. :p
Also I've toyed with the idea of using another faction, perhaps Seraphims, especially if that whole "roll down" thing becomes a real hindrance, though it shouldn't be if I use air factory for military and land ones for engies. From looking at the stats page though, the Zeus really seems excellent for very early raiding.

On-topic though, I've come to realize I'll obviously need at least one land factory, if at least for engineers and some Mantises to protect against early raids. I think I'll try to go for an "interdiction" strategy, locking the opponent in his base as much as possible and using early air to cripple him and slow him down (with the "ultimate" goal being to energy starve (or "stall" as you say, but I prefer my term :p ) him since it seems to pretty much be a death sentence if it comes at the wrong time) while developing myself. Gonna be heavy on the multitaskingµ and I'm guaranteed to fumble at first but it seems to at least make more sense than my first idea. Besides, I can always switch to more land (or navy, if applicable)-heavy if the air raids failed and the opponent started massing interceptors and/or mobile AA.

Statistics: Posted by Wendek — 14 Mar 2014, 14:26

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-14T14:10:41+02:00

You cannot go air as your first factory as Cybran because their air factory engineer rolloff rate is very slow compared to other factions. Not sure if this is fixed yet. It's a huge economic disadvantage early on.

object

Statistics: Posted by gnatinator — 14 Mar 2014, 14:10

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-13T19:00:49+02:00

Another air-heavy game by ZLO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mdvpg-ZHdc

i think i kinda got big advantage before went for heavy air
i was able to get 80 corsairs... and it was like game ender snipe

also here we try in team game, and kinda made not perfect teamplay, RAS timing was awfull, and it is very hard, you really need to avoid making multiple t3 HQ's in your team,

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 13 Mar 2014, 19:00

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-13T13:47:53+02:00

Mass renaming by many players, I think we had 5 or 6 Lu_Xuns with various names

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 13 Mar 2014, 13:47

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-13T13:13:18+02:00

ax0lotl wrote:
Another air-heavy game by ZLO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mdvpg-ZHdc

Why does it say Lu_Xun_17 as player name, but it's obviously ZLO that is playing?
Was this a joke/prank?

Statistics: Posted by Phlegm — 13 Mar 2014, 13:13

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-13T11:58:46+02:00

One more example of a no-land play, extreme turtle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xefop_Xxe8s

Statistics: Posted by ax0lotl — 13 Mar 2014, 11:58

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-13T11:19:17+02:00

I'm also just an average player, but here's some thoughts:

It sounds like you prefer mid/late game over early game. With some team maps you can be defensive in the beginning and eco and tech up early. In 1v1 that mostly is not an option.

Navy is relatively expensive. On some maps t2 navy will win it for you, but you need to survive until then.

A big difference between playing against AI and humans, is that AI keeps sending units against your point defenses. Humans will try something else.

Another air-heavy game by ZLO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mdvpg-ZHdc
He is an exceptional player though.

So skipping Cybran t1 land, I think mostly would not work. But a heavy air force can be very devastating. For instance, if there was nearly no airplay so you don't have a lot of anti-air, and suddenly your opponent comes with a group of jesters that he can defend with interceptors, then you are in trouble.

Statistics: Posted by ax0lotl — 13 Mar 2014, 11:19

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-13T06:54:39+02:00

Tactic is not standard therefore you may find success against lower rated players who don't know how to counter or just run a standard build order.

As you get to higher levels of play you will get scouted early. Your slower start will be punished by rapid expansion from your enemy and early raids
AA spam will cause your air to just be a mass donation and they will proceed to walk over you with a land army to which you have no counter.

Supcom is much like a game of chess. You counter your opponents moves. Air has the advantage of mobility and the disadvantage of being easy to counter. Its thus generally better suited to pick off high value targets rather than as a complete strategy.

Statistics: Posted by SomeoneAUS — 13 Mar 2014, 06:54

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-13T02:08:05+02:00

Interesting, thanks everyone for your answers.
For Ceneraii : I guess I phrased my post (very) badly. I know that Cybran land is not "weak" per se or at least not more than the rest, I just don't like it, for several reasons. In fact I pretty much dislike ground units for every faction. I find them annoying/clunky to control when they're too numerous, and it seems like they almost always have to be in huge swarms to be effective except very early game. They're also too easy to destroy lategame by air experimentals (oh god the carnage when you send a Soul Ripper on some group of bots, arties or even AA...) or even nukes (though I suppose most games don't go that far, but if they do you have a higher chance of hitting an army instead of a likely-defended base). Maybe I'm just terrible at micro-ing, well in fact that's very likely. :p But in every game, I've always prefered the "quality over quantity" approach, even if in SupCom no matter what you do you'll still need rather large quantities. But at least air, being "stronger" but more expensive, allows me to keep part of that playstyle.

I do agree that building a land factory for the very early game might still be better though. I did notice that annoying thing where engineers have to descend from the platform, losing valuable time in the process. Also air units take much longer to build so indeed in the case of a very early raid I may get fucked badly. I guess the end choice will be something like, either pure air and use fixed defenses (t1 arties might get annoying, especially aeon), either land for the very beginning and then switch to air as soon as the base is more or less operational.

And thanks for that youtube link, I'll try to fight my squirrel-like attention span and watch it.

I think I'll get an opportunity to try this in skirmishes against the AI tomorrow (to get an idea of what I can do without getting energy or mass-starved), then will try the Steam ladder. I know there are differences between FAF and Vanilla FA, but right now I'm still using Vanilla because I think the Steam ladder will be slightly lower-level (there are probably a few people like me who got the game with the -75% sale last week, although I had played it a bit a few years ago). I know that whole rhetoric about fighting people who are better blah blah blah, but seeing as I'll be trying something unorthodox, I'd rather test the waters against people of my skill level first. I do intend to switch to FAF soon enough, don't worry, there's a reason I'm on these boards and not generic ones. Plus people seem nice and newb-accepting here, that's a healthy change for someone who played some hundreds of hours of League of Legends. :p

Statistics: Posted by Wendek — 13 Mar 2014, 02:08

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-12T20:36:03+02:00

Well there are two ways... you can go very heavy t1 air with no land at all or just couple tanks, or you go with some land but then win air and get fast t2 air and raid with it..

but in both situations you can be in bad position if enemy identifyes that you have only air and makes enought AA
or he can switch to massive t1 interceptor spam and just win air from you and you instaloose
pretty much like here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcFZlwglvFU i lost air when i went for pretty heavy air play,
then i just lost faith xD

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 12 Mar 2014, 20:36

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-12T20:21:31+02:00

Well there is nothing wrong with an early air-heavy approach, especially for cybran. However, there are some things to consider; you will be extremely vulnerable to early raiding which can end up being crippling if you can't do anything about it. If your early bombers or jesters get countered thats a big investment gone up in smoke, as well as mass donation for your enemy. Especially on 5x5 maps I think this tactic will cripple you. Also you would need to practice your airmicro alot for it to be effective and cybran hoverbombing is not the best. There is a good video by ra_zlo on youtube where he goes almost full air, you could take some pointers from that.

Now one thing I'd like to address; namely your opinion of cybran land. It's actually extremely good. Cloaked moles make for awesome visual scouts, especially at lower levels of play. Mantis are fast which is good for both offense and defense. Medusa's are absolutely amazing and really start to shine at the t2 stage of the game. Rhinos are amazing tanks and when paired with medusa will wreck most t2 armies, hoplites can kite everything all day long. Cybran mml's break firebases faster than you can say reclaim and lets not forget the firebeetles always ready to punish unprotected eco via stealth drop. Bricks are nearly unstoppable and trebuchets will decimate whatever you want with their massive aoe.

But back to the point; there are some other disadvantages for skipping land entirely like the roll-off time of engies from air factory (slows down your expansion) and it's usually a lot easier to get massive landspam going than it is to get airspam going. For airspam you need power and mass, while for landspam it's mostly just mass.

The advantages are of course also there, if you can keep air control cybran air-to-ground is pretty wicked and it's something most people will not expect. You can also scout very early (giving away that you are building air though!) and quickly start countering whatever your opponent is doing.

But if you are truly in love with air, my personal suggestion would be to go second air instead of first. You can still raid with land units early, get plenty of engies up and most importantly set yourself up to not stall or have to choose between building engies or your air force! Early t2 air can be quite devastating as well if you can master it and kill your opponents power (seriously, they hate that).

Link to the video i mentioned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raSEkh0lp8w

Hope this helps!

Statistics: Posted by Ceneraii — 12 Mar 2014, 20:21

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-12T20:09:29+02:00

you can do that against aeon cause you can kill auroras with jesters (or at least kill spirits and aeon most likely retreat)
you can do that against cybran cause their t1 mobile aa is like 130 hp or so and tank have not highest hp...
it is harder against sera/uef cause it takes much more time to just kill uef engyneer (150 hp) or uef tank (300 hp) compared to other factions tanks and engies, and uef t1 mobile aa have most dps and seem to have good muzzle velocity

sera can just go second air -> bomber and bomber will arrive earlyer and can do much damage and can try block air fac

but also cyb t2 have rhinos wich are great against t1, against sera may have to use hoplites because sera t2 bots > rhinos

but also you will have to micro your jesters perfectly and then micro your t2 units, cause you not allowed to loose any of them to some random arty shots...
and ofc as always everything depends on map...

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 12 Mar 2014, 20:09

Re: Skipping early Land as Cybran?

2014-03-12T19:29:16+02:00

On the small 1v1 maps you have to rely on your groundforce. Air is just to unrelieable. Intis can't shoot ground, and you have to be very careful that you dont lose all you airforce to flak, something that happens very fast. as soon as you opponent reaches t2 you have lost if you dont build any land, because of t2 flak and t2 units.
also, air is very expensive, you need much power to produce it constantly and dont underestimate the masscosts: Jesters and bomber are very heavy on mass and are easily countered by flak or intis.
You would have to rush a first bomber/jester to raid you opponent, but after you initial mass you dont have any more and it would just take way too long.
Maybe it could work vs low rated players, but not against someone with experience.

Statistics: Posted by CrayzyNath — 12 Mar 2014, 19:29