Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-13T09:20:48+02:00

belive me, t3 moblie arty works well vs t2 turtles

because you soon reach a critical point, one second all shields down can mean many shield generators down, if you have to option to build t3 arty you should build it and not mml's anymore

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 13 May 2013, 09:20

Re: Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-13T08:58:46+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
well ofc T3 arty does work nicely, question just if if you have T3 arty whe he has T2 PD

Well, T3 artilleries might work, but it's too far-fetched to use them in my opinion. First of all, they won't be at your disposal while the enemy is building his first T2 PDs and secondly T2 shields are cheaper than mobile T3 artilleries if you don't count the cost for energy generators, so the tactic is only going to work if the enemy doesn't have quite a bit of energy at his disposal (500+ per second). Personally I couldn't be arsed to calculate in a match whether that is the case. Of course it will pay off in the long run, because he will need more energy later on either way, at which point T3 artilleries will be cheaper, but that will take too long if you ask me.

http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/un ... 04,UEL0304
The shields cost between 160/2000 and 700/7000 while all mobile artilleries cost 800/8000.

Also, unless the enemy uses Cybrant shields, you will need more than one mobile T3 artillery to get through a shield because their recharge rate is higher than the DPS of any mobile T3 artillery.
The artilleries have between 67 and 75 DPS, while the UEF, Aeon and Seraphim shield have a recharge rate of 120, 138 and 153. Even taking into account that it takes a second before a shield starts regenerating after receiving damage, the regeneration is still a lot better.

Am I missing something?

Statistics: Posted by Kurbain — 13 May 2013, 08:58

Re: Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-13T07:01:33+02:00

well ofc T3 arty does work nicely, question just if if you have T3 arty whe he has T2 PD

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 13 May 2013, 07:01

Re: Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-13T05:45:32+02:00

Normally the best way to beat is a defense is just walking around it, but of course that's not possible on such a small map, at least with land forces.

One thing you can do when you notice your enemy is building a lot of PDs is send some planes over to check how well his air defenses are and focus on air units/transports if his defenses are weak. If your enemy mainly focuses on stationary defenses, he won't have many units to attack you with, so you won't need many land forces to defend your base with. Just make sure to keep up a bit of harassment with long-range units like MMLs or otherwise the enemy might get bold and advance too quickly. By the time his defense has crept up to your base, his base should long be history.

You could also try to rush to T3 as UEF and build Spearheads (T3 MML) if you know that the enemy won't be at your doorstep before you produced some.
Rushing to T3 artillery is not worth it, because T2 shields are cheaper than T3 artillery and it takes too long to get through them with artillery anyway.

TMLs could be another way as a Cybrant since the missiles still do 2400 damage after being hit once, so they will kill a T2 turret without veterancy in one hit, but only do that if you got some units to assault with directly after the turrets are destroyed and you already got some TMLs. TMLs cost quite a bit more than TMDs, so if you don't have some TMLs build already and put a stop to his defenses quickly, don't do that. In the long run it would cost you a lot more than him.

Overview:

Can work:
Switching to air units
Building T2 MMLs
Rushing to T3 MMLs as UEF if enemy doesn't advance too quickly
Cybrant TML if you got some already

Won't work:
Mobile T3 artillery
TMLs unless you are in the situation mentioned above
Stationary T2 artillery
Normal units

All these options assume that the economy of you and your enemy are equal. If your enemy got a lot more resources and builds defenses which you can't avoid, your only option is scouting and then switching to the unit type your enemy invested the least resources in. Air or navy.

Statistics: Posted by Kurbain — 13 May 2013, 05:45

Re: Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-10T19:13:18+02:00

well
if you opponent doesnt know what do do against stealth (a 800rating will likely not know) then yes. But in general i would say that you need TMD/Shields if you enemy also starts building MML (or you permanently make them move but thats still preblematic becasue small raids or short pushs with rangebots can own them

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 10 May 2013, 19:13

Re: Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-10T16:09:26+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
point 1: the factory on the hill: sorry but that simply cannot work and you just give your opponent mass and waste mass yourself
due this wasted mass and buildpower you are not able to push on him while he is going t2 (big mistake)

then , when you saw he had t2 you did not react for ages (at least it felt like ages)

then: you see he has rangebots and pd only = build rangebots and tml or tml and PD but not tanks (somehow mass waste)
(when you later got an advantage by 19 to 27 mass it was negated because you didnt build anything to deal with the mogoose

2nd wasted factory on the hill (big mistake)

then you waste all your units by running into t2 (what was not nessesary cause you still had a small advantage)

you did not build any tmd, while he had tmd and mml (= all your mml's die + be happy that he didnt build a static tml or com tml)

Conclusion:
You lost the game because you wasted mass and units and because you didnt build hoplites and stealthfield to deal with Mogoose.

Advices:
- T2 Rangebots are countered by T2 PD, Bombers (T1) or by, in your case, Hoplites.
- If your enemy has MML and PD AND TMD then you have no chance by just build MML.
- Dont build factories next to the enemy commander. XD

Do note that I reclaimed those factories myself

Seriously though, thank you for a quick analysis of the game.

One question though, you say

- If your enemy has MML and PD AND TMD then you have no chance by just build MML.

You do have a chance with MML + Hoplite + stealth?

Statistics: Posted by Valki — 10 May 2013, 16:09

Re: Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-10T14:07:12+02:00

point 1: the factory on the hill: sorry but that simply cannot work and you just give your opponent mass and waste mass yourself
due this wasted mass and buildpower you are not able to push on him while he is going t2 (big mistake)

then , when you saw he had t2 you did not react for ages (at least it felt like ages)

then: you see he has rangebots and pd only = build rangebots and tml or tml and PD but not tanks (somehow mass waste)
(when you later got an advantage by 19 to 27 mass it was negated because you didnt build anything to deal with the mogoose

2nd wasted factory on the hill (big mistake)

then you waste all your units by running into t2 (what was not nessesary cause you still had a small advantage)

you did not build any tmd, while he had tmd and mml (= all your mml's die + be happy that he didnt build a static tml or com tml)

Conclusion:
You lost the game because you wasted mass and units and because you didnt build hoplites and stealthfield to deal with Mogoose.

Advices:
- T2 Rangebots are countered by T2 PD, Bombers (T1) or by, in your case, Hoplites.
- If your enemy has MML and PD AND TMD then you have no chance by just build MML.
- Dont build factories next to the enemy commander. XD

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 10 May 2013, 14:07

Re: Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-10T13:57:10+02:00

I think you should have used air earlier on, you built a few air scouts and inties but didn't use them.
Some early jesters could have taken out many of his engineers before he had defenses up.

As your opponent went t2 quite early you had a larger army, backed up by your comm you could have done a lot of damage and stopped the early t1 pds.

When you attacked some of his t1 PD you did it head on, using the mountains for cover and utilising the range of your arty would have been better here.

Be more aggressive with your com (his was always on the front line), maybe some upgrades.

On such a small map large t1 armies often fall over themselves, and get picked off. You perhaps should have focussed more on t2 or even t3.

Finally, while your ecos were similar his was arguably consistently better: more reclaim (he got the early reclaim sooner too), and you stalled on energy fairly early.

Just some ideas, hopefully helpful.

Statistics: Posted by Beej — 10 May 2013, 13:57

Re: Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-10T13:25:32+02:00

I'm not at home but t1 arty is usually the most effective counter. Using t1 bombers to distract or kill engineers can be useful too.

Statistics: Posted by ZaphodX — 10 May 2013, 13:25

Lost to T2 PD creep

2013-05-10T13:21:12+02:00

I don't see any really big mistakes, our eco's are equal...

What could I have done (better) to beat the PD creep?

Statistics: Posted by Valki — 10 May 2013, 13:21