Forged Alliance Forever

Re: A few questions

2013-04-26T07:43:08+02:00

Zock is playing with Engy mod, that make it viable.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 26 Apr 2013, 07:43

Re: A few questions

2013-04-25T21:56:19+02:00

discover2k4 you are talking nonsense this time. Watch Zock on Ronoke's Abyss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68HCwqv1Dbg
Eveb he uses the common sense method of upgrading several, unassisted at a time.

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 25 Apr 2013, 21:56

Re: A few questions

2013-04-17T13:39:34+02:00

pls see attachment ... I'm pretty sure that the numbers are correct, maybe I failed, maybe not ... pls consider that I assumed that the mexes are spread out. So, building the last 2 mexes in minute 5 to 6 for example.

The red marked numbers in the sheet highlight the next mass income level.

Case 1 - t1 -> t2 (base only) -> t2+MS (base only) -> t3 (base only) [all unassisted]
case 2 - t1 -> t2 (all mexes step by step) [all unassisted]
case 3 - t1 -> t2 (all mexes step by step) -> t3 [all assisted with double buildpower as normal]
case 4 - t1 only (no upgrades)

both: case 1 and case 2 are very similar in overall mass outcome. case 1 causes some more micro because of mass storage but it looks safer because you can defend them better (obvisously) ...
case 3, like you said dilli dalli - upgrading all mexes to t2 is best, but you need to double the amount of buildpower to get more mass out (at 30 minute mark) then case 1 or 2.

but anyway, it was just to show that it can be better to assist also outstanding mexes, if you got map control. It was not my attempt to show, which way is more efficient regarding mass/unit.

as I said, the assumption is very basic. could have included reclaims, possibility of losing a mex due to less map control, upgrading 2 to 3 mexes at once... and so on

br,
dis

ps. Attachment is zipped, because forum doesnt allow pdf files. its from my pc at work, so its 100% safe - call me if you don't trust it, I look if I got the time to send jpgs....

Statistics: Posted by discoverer2k4 — 17 Apr 2013, 13:39

Re: A few questions

2013-04-17T08:09:54+02:00

about unassisted mexes, t1 mex has 2 t1 ingeners inside of it, you can have advantage if you have not much ingeners, or all of them recliming,
Or pros want to tech slowly, and do not get overspammed by someone like Yann
About multiple unassisted upgraides, you may have no build power or busy by other stuff, or just to lazy for that

Also some pros prefere to not mass stall probably

Example download/file.php?id=1577

Edit: taunts"/44" "/%number of taunt%" - in game chat

Edit2 alt+F2 for cheating menu, also alt+t to teleport unit. Wach Sheppard's tutorial about cheatin menu

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 17 Apr 2013, 08:09

Re: A few questions

2013-04-16T16:46:13+02:00

I have no idea where you pulled the numbers form for that, but a pretty basic calculation shows that it is more mass efficient to upgrade mexes to t2 than it is to upgrade them to t3 or surround them with storage.

This leads me to believe that you assumed different numbers of mex starting positions, or assumed different amounts of economic input, in which case the whole analysis is rendered as uselfull as saying "more mass is better". As enlightening as that is, I'm pretty sure flynn was already well aware of this.

If this isn't the case, please do share the numbers and the calculaton you were using, heres mine for reference:

For t2 mex you spend 225 mass per unit output
For storage around t2 mex you spend 267 per unit output
For t3 mex (wth storage already) you spend 256 per unit output

225 per unit output is cheaper!

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 16 Apr 2013, 16:46

Re: A few questions

2013-04-16T16:36:52+02:00

well, sry it was not my attempt to be rude...

So... you can see, assist your mexes is indeed better than just let the mexes upgrade themselves ... BUT ... what you need is MAP CONTROL! If you don't got the map... you should only upgrade your base (see case 1) and this as fast as possible before you lose not only the map.......

sry, i don't get you dillidalli ... isn't that what I said or tried to say (I mean, my english is not good, maybe I used some wrong words?! )? You can upgrade all your mexes fast (means assist them) and earn significantly more mass, but this is far behind a real game because you need map control - to get map control you need units. without units you will be kicked in the ass. We all know that... and with map or zone control you earn fast mass through reclaims - this is not included in the calculation above....

His question was, if it is better to assist the mexes outside the base yes or no ... All I said it depends mainly on the situation but in fact it is better to upgrade them as fast as possible and one by one because they pay off faster... because they get raided faster (maybe).
So ... why I should upgrade some unsafe mexes outside my base slowly, if I'm afraid they get raided faster as they pay off... If I am able to upgrade them with 5 engys while I have 5 engys reclaiming behind my ACU push, I have my normal income to push my opponent back and upgrade my mexes with the reclaims on the field as fast as possible. I could spend the mass indeed better into some more t2 units to kill my opponent, but I can out-eco him as well.

And overall my calculation shows that it is safer and same efficient to upgrade the mexes in your base to t2 + MS and then t3 before you start upgrade all outstanding mexes anyway. You don't have to worry about oustanding mexes get sniped by TML on the other hand.

And... I'm afraid a lot of players on the level of Flynn and me are supporting the T2 landfac for example so much, that they have -50 mass/s or something ... upgrading the outstanding t2 mexes unassisted is another story than :-p (it will take ages until they are ready...)

so, what did I get wrong, or where can I change/improve my viewpoint?

Statistics: Posted by discoverer2k4 — 16 Apr 2013, 16:36

Re: A few questions

2013-04-16T15:32:06+02:00

I refute that analysis discoverer. If you have lots of engineers spread all over the map then you've wasted lots of mass. Theres better things to be doing in a 1v1. While you were getting 50 extra mass by upgrading in the "best" fashion, flynn was pushing his units forward and then dropping those same engies behind his units to get he reclaim, earning him 2k mass.

Also I think you could have phrased everything you said in a slightly less insulting fashion.

As for the op I normally just upgrade mexes without assist unless I am primarily focusing on eco in which case I'll chuck in whatever engies I have and go for the upgrades 1 by 1. Trust me when I say theres more important things to focus on than how you upgrade your mexes, such as "when" you upgrade your mexes.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 16 Apr 2013, 15:32

Re: A few questions

2013-04-16T14:59:58+02:00

flynn, isn't it logical, that you build what you can afford to build...? If you can defend your side of map, or if your opponent sleeps some minutes, scout him permanently, look what he is doing and upgrade your mexes in that time, if you can imagine that his units won't break your defense ...upgrade your mexes as fast as possible by assisting engys sounds reasonable, or not?!? Spread out mass extractors should be the last ones you are upgrading if you are not absolutely sure you can defend them at least more than the ~3 minutes until they pay off... if you can defend them, send 2 or 3 groups of engys to each mexes to upgrade them as fast as possible so they pay off earlier... if you start upgrading them unassisted, they maybe get upgraded just in time when your opponent runs them over again... than it was a very bad investment. If you struggle in micro, play cybran, spam mantis and if you are not attacking use them to assist your mex upgrades...

the other solution:upgrade the 4 mexes in your well defended base fast to t2+MS and later t3+ms step by step....

I have a little rule for 1v1... if it's a small two way map with lots of reclaims like vale of isis, start upgrading your mexes each by each nearly from the beginning, as you can handle the spam with units and acu. upgrade the 4 base mexes more or less unassisted and if you can hold your half of the map, start building mass storage with more than 4 engys around your base mexes. After this, you can think about upgrading your expansions...
On a more open map, also bigger maps, map control is more difficult, u start later with upgrading your mexes - as everyone permanently propose: around or after 10 minutes...

the problem is not, that you fall accidently behind in eco, because your opponent is better. It is your fault to not scout enough and react on what your opponent is doing and keep one step ahead...

HERE an very basic calculation sheet I did some minutes ago (each case 12 mexes that you can control...):
mass.jpg
(I don't now the exact build time, so my calculation of mass invest to time is not negotiable to a real ingame case)

Case 1: you start upgrading your 4 mexes in your base step by step at minute 10 with 2 engys, after all 4 mexes are upgraded, you surround each of them with mass storages step by step. At the end you start upgrading to t3 in your base. all other mexes (8 of 12 mexes) are still at t1.

Case 2: you are an illusionist of map control and upgrade step by step all of your 12 mexes to t2 (same as case 1, with 2 engys for example). No mass storage in your base. At minute 30 you finish your job and got 10 of 12 mexes upgraded to t2. So, very slowly but constantly indeed.

Case 3: your first raids where very efficient and you have time and engys to make the same as in case 2, but this time you double the amount of assisting engys. In less time you are able to upgrade your t2 mexes and you earn a lot of mass for this. You can invest ~9000 mass more into t3 mass extractors before the timeline (30 minutes) end.

Case 4: you spam units... all the time... map control is everything, raiding makes you high. You don't upgrade your t1 mexes at all... you will get less mass, but I doubt the match was already over after 15 minutes, if your opponent doesn't played aggressive like you

here are the investments and overall mass outcomes of each case:

mass in (mass invested in mexupgrades)
case 1: 63660 (-11382)
case 2: 64740 (-9432)
case 3: 85380 (-20432)
case 4: 40740 (-432)

in case 1 you can use ~52 k mass for units and attack buildings
in case 2 you can use ~55 k mass for units and attack buildings
in case 3 you can use ~64 k mass for units and attack buildings
in case 4 you can use ~40 k mass for units and attack buildings

So... you can see, assist your mexes is indeed better than just let the mexes upgrade themselves ... BUT ... what you need is MAP CONTROL! If you don't got the map... you should only upgrade your base (see case 1) and this as fast as possible before you lose not only the map....... Sometimes it can help to pause everything else to upgrade at least 1 mex to t2 asap!!!! You will find yourself doing this especially if your opponent got 2x t2 mex and a t2 fac... while you are still at t1...

Flynn what else can I say as: "Start thinking logically"

br,
dis

Statistics: Posted by discoverer2k4 — 16 Apr 2013, 14:59

Re: A few questions

2013-04-16T14:16:03+02:00

That method certainly works, but Supreme Economy is more flexible and makes it much easier to keep track of the condition of your mexes.

Statistics: Posted by Eukanuba — 16 Apr 2013, 14:16

Re: A few questions

2013-04-16T12:12:17+02:00

Thanks for the other info, but the pause bug I am referring to is the one where you select all mass extractors, hit upgrade, then you can get a group of engineers to upgrade them just by clicking "assist" onto each mass extractor in turn. I know this works because I have used it frequently and recently. Also, I agree with what you say on the whole, upgrade mass extractors unassisted and gradually you're mass income will increase exponentially to the point where you can upgrade 2-3 at once. It's only really for T3 mass extractors where you have to start assisting them on maps where mass points are really spread out that is, obviously on "rush me more" or somesuch map it is feasible to upgrade Tech 1 mass extractors to Tech 2 with mass engineer assistance.

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 16 Apr 2013, 12:12

Re: A few questions

2013-04-16T11:52:14+02:00

1. In 1v1 I don't think that it's a good idea to assist mex upgrades at all unless you've got a massive reclaim income that needs to be spent ASAP. The pause bug doesn't exist any more and hasn't since 3599 to my knowledge.

2. http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/Taunt

3. When hosting a game, under Game Options there is a long list of options on the right hand side. One of these is Cheats Enabled On/Off.

Statistics: Posted by Eukanuba — 16 Apr 2013, 11:52

A few questions

2013-04-16T11:23:51+02:00

1. Spread out mass points upgrading

On a map where the mass points are really spread out, it is often not practical to assist each mass extractor with engineers and then build storages around it. On these maps, I normally select 2 mass extractors and upgrade them unassisted, which I HAVE SEEN PROS DO IN REPLAYS. So don't tell me that you should ALWAYS assist them, when it is too much micro and therefore you WILL forget sometimes and therefore fall behind in economy. None the less, I have seen a lot of people insist that you MUST assist upgrading mass extractors with engies EVERY TIME, which is stupid IMHAO. And yes, I know about the pause bug, which is totally irrelevant to this scenario as the logistics of getting engineers out to every mass extractor is simply not practical on certain maps.

2. How do you do voice taunts?

What the title says.

3. How do you enable cheats for sandbox testing?

Again, what the title says.

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 16 Apr 2013, 11:23