Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Air

2016-09-08T05:59:29+02:00

I didn't do much, but you're welcome

Statistics: Posted by angus000 — 08 Sep 2016, 05:59

Re: Air

2016-09-08T03:34:05+02:00

I very much appreciate your maths. You're speaking my language.

This has already helped a lot. Won both my games today (random really likes to put me in air). Have some optimizing to do but at least I have a direction now.

Thanks thanks thanks.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 08 Sep 2016, 03:34

Re: Air

2016-09-07T23:43:11+02:00

codepants wrote:
angus000 wrote:Indeed, it's just as you said. 4 t2 mexes + 8 t1 = 40 mass.

My comment was that the math comes out to 3 capped t2 mexes (*9 mass each=27 mass total) and 11 t1 (*2 mass each = 22 mass total) (sum: 39), so 4 is too many.

But I think the point is I'm capping 10 instead of [some number lower than 10]. So I'll just try capping some number less than 10.

Thanks.

27 + 22 = 49, not 39. But besides that, capping your mexes before having more t2 mexes is not the most efficent way of doing it.

Let's say you have 3 t2 capped mexes and 11 t1, that means 49 mass per second at the cost of 14*36 + 3*900+ 12*200 = 5604 mass invested.
But it's better to have 5 t2 non-capped mexes and 9 t1, which is 48 mass per second at the cost of 14*36 + 5*900 = 5004 mass invested (not that big of a difference though).

The thing is, 4 t2 non-capped mexes + 8 is the minimum you need to get RAS asap. No one said you need to cap them.

Statistics: Posted by angus000 — 07 Sep 2016, 23:43

Re: Air

2016-09-07T22:41:48+02:00

angus000 wrote:
Indeed, it's just as you said. 4 t2 mexes + 8 t1 = 40 mass.

My comment was that the math comes out to 3 capped t2 mexes (*9 mass each=27 mass total) and 11 t1 (*2 mass each = 22 mass total) (sum: 39), so 4 is too many.

But I think the point is I'm capping 10 instead of [some number lower than 10]. So I'll just try capping some number less than 10.

Thanks.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 07 Sep 2016, 22:41

Re: Air

2016-09-07T22:33:36+02:00

Sorry, I was in a hurry so I just paste the link there and hoped for you to figure out the rest

Indeed, it's just as you said. 4 t2 mexes + 8 t1 = 40 mass.

Statistics: Posted by angus000 — 07 Sep 2016, 22:33

Re: Air

2016-09-07T22:39:40+02:00

I think that's you're incredibly roundabout and user-unfriendly way of saying the wiki is wrong?

Your link says 5000 mass and 150000 E. Okay. That math comes out to needing 40 mass to be proportional to 1220 energy, or 3 t2 mexes and 11 t1.

So 4-6 is low.

Which is right?

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 07 Sep 2016, 22:05

Re: Air

2016-09-07T20:15:37+02:00

codepants wrote:
PhilipJFry wrote:4-6 t2 mex are enough to get RAS + t3 air making more will slow you down.

So I did the math on this. According to the wiki (http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/Aeon_T3_Su ... mmand_Unit) RAS is 30000 energy and 2500 mass.

The most efficient way to get any upgrade is to have the same proportion of mass and energy as the update. That is,
(your energy income) / (your mass income) = (upgrade's energy requirement) / (upgrade's mass requirement)
This way, you aren't wasting mass nor energy, you use them each in equal proportion to their need.

You said I should use 2 t2 pgens, so that's 1k E, plus the ACU (20) and say, 10 t1 pgens, for a total of 1220 E.

We can then solve for mass income in the above equation, which turns out to be 100. That is, for an income of 1220 E, the proportional mass income for getting RAS is 100 mass.

On Seton's you have roughly (counting off the top of my head, I'm at work so can't open the replay) 13 mexes. We can solve the number that should be either t1 (income of 2) or capped t2 (income of 9) as follows:
t1*2 + t2*9 = 100
t1+t2 = 13
--> t1*2 + (total-t1)*9 = 100
--> t1 = 2.4, let's round up to 3 (doesn't affect my conclusion)
--> t2 = 13-3 = 10

So in short, the math says it's more efficient to have ~10 t2 mexes, ~3 t1 mexes, and ~2 t2 pgens. 10 t2 mexes is a far cry from 4-6.

What am I missing?

http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/un ... bp=UAL0001

Statistics: Posted by angus000 — 07 Sep 2016, 20:15

Re: Air

2016-09-07T18:56:17+02:00

PhilipJFry wrote:
4-6 t2 mex are enough to get RAS + t3 air making more will slow you down.

So I did the math on this. According to the wiki (http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/Aeon_T3_Su ... mmand_Unit) RAS is 30000 energy and 2500 mass.

The most efficient way to get any upgrade is to have the same proportion of mass and energy as the update. That is,
(your energy income) / (your mass income) = (upgrade's energy requirement) / (upgrade's mass requirement)
This way, you aren't wasting mass nor energy, you use them each in equal proportion to their need.

You said I should use 2 t2 pgens, so that's 1k E, plus the ACU (20) and say, 10 t1 pgens, for a total of 1220 E.

We can then solve for mass income in the above equation, which turns out to be 100. That is, for an income of 1220 E, the proportional mass income for getting RAS is 100 mass.

On Seton's you have roughly (counting off the top of my head, I'm at work so can't open the replay) 13 mexes. We can solve the number that should be either t1 (income of 2) or capped t2 (income of 9) as follows:
t1*2 + t2*9 = 100
t1+t2 = 13
--> t1*2 + (total-t1)*9 = 100
--> t1 = 2.4, let's round up to 3 (doesn't affect my conclusion)
--> t2 = 13-3 = 10

So in short, the math says it's more efficient to have ~10 t2 mexes, ~3 t1 mexes, and ~2 t2 pgens. 10 t2 mexes is a far cry from 4-6.

What am I missing?

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 07 Sep 2016, 18:56

Re: Air

2016-09-02T20:48:44+02:00

PhilipJFry wrote:
...

Exactly what I needed, thanks.

RAS nerf?

Speed2 - thanks as well.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 02 Sep 2016, 20:48

Re: Air

2016-09-01T09:35:59+02:00

Maybe this can help a bit as well
object

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 01 Sep 2016, 09:35

Re: Air

2016-09-01T09:07:37+02:00

I'm just gonna comment on the setons air build.

Spoiler: show

Getting t2 on your ACU is a waste of Mass and Energy you want to have a t2 air factory to get a t2 engi for your t2 pgens.
Patrol moves are not the most efficient way to reclaim trees. Using the attack move from the factory and dragging it further once your engis are not close to tree groups anymore is much better.

Walking your engis through your trees breaks the tree groups and makes reclaiming less effective. Avoid doing so at all cost.
If you play a single RAS faction i recommend building your t2 pgens adcecant to the air hq for obvious reasons.

You can start upgrading RAS after your 1st t2 pgen is finished while supporting your ACU with one engi and pausing your ACU to avoid stalling while using your power. You can then finish your RAS with the 2nd t2 pgen no need for more

Spoiler: show

4-6 t2 mex are enough to get RAS + t3 air making more will slow you down.

Other than that i can only recommend watching replays of players who spam ASF earlier than you do to see what they do different or watch a tutorial to see how its done.

object

Or you simply wait until the RAS nerf gets released and you have to learn a different build anyway.

Statistics: Posted by PhilipJFry — 01 Sep 2016, 09:07

Re: Air

2016-09-01T05:46:51+02:00

im away, so i cannot see the replays yet

but typically, 3 t2 pgens is a lot of pgens

Statistics: Posted by biass — 01 Sep 2016, 05:46

Air

2016-09-01T04:09:33+02:00

Word on the street is I suck at air.

Watch these replays and tell me *specifically* what to do better.

No formulas. "4 mex hydro eco 3 t2 pgens ras reclaim pgens all bp on air" is what I did. But apparently I still suck.

SPECIFICALLY what do to differently. At what minute mark did I make what mistake and what should I do differently next time? Optional, but preferred: Why did it cost me? Ex: How much mass did I overspend by?

If you want to flame, go somewhere else.

Thanks!

EDIT: These games were random spots, random faction, so feedback about which faction to choose is welcomed, but not necessarily productive. Though as much as I'd like to blame it on not being Aeon, I suspect there is something else at play.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 01 Sep 2016, 04:09