Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-09-24T17:04:09+02:00

and do want do if someone was able to switch in superhard turtel mode?

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 24 Sep 2012, 17:04

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-09-23T21:34:48+02:00

Around 10 ASF can kill a seraphim bomber. A shield on each island will buy you time to kill it too. The main issue here is the innnos all keep on ecoing and doing not much when the others are begin smashed by the phantoms. You need to be ready and you need to look ready so the phantoms are deterred from attacking you with that first czar. Scouting is a must and so is a decent airforce, but that goes for any game.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 23 Sep 2012, 21:34

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-08-10T15:27:13+02:00

30 t2 units is nothing to kill if you consider the t4 crush units they walk on and have secondary weapons. (even worse with air : you just have to attack small islands to regain ealth)
Good for you if you still enjoy playing Phantom games. All what made the interest of the mod for me (diplomacy and epic battles) vanished with the vet. Now phantom games are just t4 contests, almost like thermo.

Edit : Ok, this is far better for t4 land than I expected. Still the air ones are OP, especialy the ripper which is amazingly resistant in early rush and can reborn to full ealth from 1000hp very easely.
But anyway I did not change my mind : even without any vet, the t4 are OP in phantoms.. then delete it cant be bad.

Statistics: Posted by Harpagon — 10 Aug 2012, 15:27

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-08-05T12:16:26+02:00

With the new veterancy, a land t4 needs to kill more than 20 t2 pds and 10 t2 shields or a similar combination to gain a single star. Veterancy simply is not a problem there. The same goes for air t4 as long as they are not spoonfed ASFs. While air t4 is slightly op in phantom games, this has little to do with vet - not since 3616.

Statistics: Posted by mead — 05 Aug 2012, 12:16

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-30T22:45:12+02:00

Innos could stop land T4 rush with t2 pds and air T4 rush with mobile flack before the new vet. Now they cant.
If you dont agree with that I give up...

Statistics: Posted by Harpagon — 30 Jul 2012, 22:45

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-30T00:12:09+02:00

Harp, we may have to agree to disagree on this one. From the games I've played so far on 3616, the veterancy doesn't really seem to be imbalanced. Sure most of the time a good phantom can rush a T4 air unit before innocents can get enough T3 air to stop it, but the veterancy doesn't substantially affect that. You could do that before the 3615 patch, and it was still devastating to the first innocent to get hit. The same thing applies to land exps. If you don't have sufficient PD or and exp of your own, you're dead. The veterancy hasn't changed that either.

With that being said, feel free to post any future replays that you feel demostrate your point. I'll take a look at them and if there's something that needs to be fixed, I'll see about fixing it.

Statistics: Posted by Duck_42 — 30 Jul 2012, 00:12

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-29T22:04:09+02:00

Will you spam T1 in a 20 min no rush game ? No ? Well, same logic for phantom games. You dont use the same units with the same frequency that in standart game. Then This is NOT the same problem that for the main game !

Btw, I tested (only one time) 3616 with phantom and it doesnt solve the problem at all as far as i saw, it was even worste for the reason I have forseen..

Statistics: Posted by Harpagon — 29 Jul 2012, 22:04

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-26T12:09:34+02:00

Well, the veterancy problem we are having here is exactly the same problem in the main game. If a phantom can't stop a CZAR or SR gaining veterancy, a player in a standard game will certainly not be able to.

The veterancy issue is still ongoing in the main game and I think that if the big issues are solved there, they will also be solved here. Giving our own replays and proposing our own solutions will only help Pilot with the final decision. The more feedback, the better.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 26 Jul 2012, 12:09

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-25T20:13:26+02:00

I agree it could be a solution. But I think Zep does not consider how the patchs for the main game will impact the mods. That is why the mods have to adapt.

Statistics: Posted by Harpagon — 25 Jul 2012, 20:13

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-25T18:22:01+02:00

The patch will *eventually* fix the problem, but that is obviously not the way we want it to go. I think that the way veterancy is gained, is good as it is, but the veterancy effects are wrong. I'd say we could just do with a 10% health increase when a new level is met, so that would be a good thing to propose to Pilot.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 25 Jul 2012, 18:22

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-25T15:42:39+02:00

It is gamebreaking, I dont say phantom games are 100% ruined but they are considerably more boring.. Maybe my imagination but I noticed the number of phantom x hosted is decrasing since the new vet.

About the t4 air : rippers are also good against asf, pple dont know how to use them (pause them and they will shoot with all weapons on air units). AND, I dont know if you noticed there are TWO phantoms in roanoke, when the innos are trying to stop the first by sending all their ress to t3 sam, if he is not compltetly stupid, the other phant will build land t4 .. So yes it is gamebreaking.

Why I am talking about this now ? Because I see you trying to nerf phantom bonus to make the innos win more and have longer games though the problem obviously comes from vet. Besides, if you nerf the phantom bonus, uef wont be a playable faction anymore (it is aldready hard enought to be a uef phantom ..).

We will see if the patch fixes the problem, I think it wont.

Statistics: Posted by Harpagon — 25 Jul 2012, 15:42

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-25T14:55:08+02:00

Does the current veterancy system suck? Yes. Does it give phantoms an advantage? Yes. Is it gamebreaking? No.

Aside from the fact that everyone knows its broken and that it will be fixed fairly soon (so why are we even talking about this?), the gameplay issues are far less serious than Harpagon claims. Players merely have to adjust somewhat - the best early game defense against Czars is no longer every innos sending in a handful of ASFs - that is horrendously counterproductive and people simply need to stop doing it. Instead, go mobile flak, and stationary T1 and T3 AA. It is possible to get enough AA up to defeat a czar in the time the czar needs to travel the distance between two islands on Roanoke. Even if the czar is pulled back and doesn't die, the situation is disadvantageous for the phantom. He has revealed himself, and wasted 45k mass with little to no return. Same goes for Rippers, who are somewhat more difficult to kill but a lot weaker against ASFs. Ahwassa can't defeat layered shields.
The issue with pd as early defense against rushed land t4 is even less serious. People mostly die because
1.) they are too stupid to move their ACU out of the way
2.) they build pd next to their t3 pgen like a noob (it seems to me 90% of UEF players do this with their t3 pd)
3.) they clump pd instead of spreading it out, which is particularly bad against Ythothas, who can take out entire clumps of t3 pd with a single shot because of their AoE (which incidentally also makes them get vet faster).

Statistics: Posted by mead — 25 Jul 2012, 14:55

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-24T19:14:07+02:00

Commlink wrote:
For 3rd or 4th time duck does not deal with this kind of game aspect and said before he does not deal with stuff like that.

The vet should be more balanced in the new fa version, that is when its released?

1st replay
4vs 1 phantom.. i thought the problem was phantom getting czar fast ? not innocent making one...
Also few things wrong on this style of play, grey has not scouted, couple t3 spy planes would have gone along way, his ability to use shields sucked lol and you micro'd the czar to get vet, wheres the problem?

good scouting also fact phantom was found early and killed his ally made it easier for u to get fast czar otherwise if i wa sin that game i would have pinged it and redirected everything i had to getting asf and land aa-t3.

2nd replay
not gonna bother watching a yotha walking slowly to someones base .. thats fail on who evers playing tbh lol. Also a good player can micro a yotha effectively to gain vet especially with engs around.

3rd replay
watched up to ripper killing blue and some of the argument, where u instantly blame the new vet and diesalot points out all the flaws in your argument, but you wont listen. I agree with diesalot on this one he did the correct thing almost killed it couple asf from pink or a few more shield even with vet that soul ripper would have been down. Infact if he had better shield coverage it would not even have had vet.

ok right so Your original argument was the pahntom could rush air exp to fast and nothing you could do, it would also vet up really fast and you would still lose?
first replay its an innocent getting czar in a 4 vs 1 phantom .. no point in showing this.
second yotha, wait was it not air? another failed replay
third, finally some proof wait no blue was just cybran crappy shields and no help from allies gg. if blues comm had been in water ripper may have gotten vet but the team efforts of innocents would have crashed it. Rippers are good for early hits on 1 person after that everyone is made aware example of this is teal building aa and almost killing the ripper.

The 4th replay might have yielded more interesting results, but if its another replay of poor shielding or mass asf covering the ripper in later game its a fail.

Also im very weary of cyrban players who go form t2 to t3 hives early and on t2 power.

If you say no each time I say yes, this wont be very constructive..

FACT : Phantoms win almost all the time since the new vet when they are not completly noobs and have decent factions.
...But there is absolutely no problem .........

Then, I repeat myself because you dont seem to get it: the problem is that point defenses are not longer effective against t4 since the new vet version. (See 2nd replay..).
A usual exemple for land t4 : 1 inno and 1 phantom who have the same BO : the phantom will finsih his t4 4 or 5 minutes before the inno does. As only t4 are effective against other t4, the inno will be killed without problem by the phantom.
For czar rush (or ripper) : or innos have aldready some air facilites and the phantom just have to rush cg(or mls), or the innos dont and they wont get enough asf in one or 2 mins (time to build a czar for a good phantom). T3 sam is the best way to defend but then all innos have to build them and it is costly .. they become easy targets for the 2nd phantom. And czar is also good at def, the first phantom wont even have wasted his ressources.

Now .. why these replays ?

1) Because if an inno can kill so easely a phantom having a base full of asf, with a czar without hurrying , there is maybe a problem. Now imagine a phantom RUSHING a czar against an inno with less asf.. And as I said, if he killed the czar, he would die because he would have lost his smd. Even as a kamikaze unit, czar would be efficient.

2) To make you understand that point defenses which were almost the only way to stop a t4 rush from a phantom before the vet are now useless.

3) Play more with Dies and you will undestand.. he often get mad when he looses (especialy against me, long stroy..), and because of that he is kicked from a lot of games. He is an experienced phantom player, at least above average but he could not kill this cheap t4. And by the way I am still waiting his replays..

I post the 4th replay, try to see it without searching at every image why it is "a fail" because innos COULD or SHOULD have do so or so.. They made a decent attempt to def. And dont forget when people are playing, they dont see the whole map as you do in replay, this is easy to criticize their strategy once the game is over ("good but not enought !").

Duck_42 wrote:
I told Harp to post them, and I'd take a look at them.

Edit: By the way Harp, I'm not even going to consider modding any of the units until after the 3616 patch is released. The veterancy will be adjusted considerably in that update, so I belive it may address most of your concerns.

Ok. But I think it will have some pervers effects. As the unit's ealth regenerates at each veterancy step, if you dont have a huge fire power, the unit becomes killable only once it has the 5 vet stars.
After the patch, it may even be worst because it could let time to the unit to loose more ealth between veterancy steps and then fully uses each regeneration of ealth and finally make the t4 last longer.( I dont know if you see what I mean .. I try to make it clear but I know my english really sucks :s). But I wait to see

Statistics: Posted by Harpagon — 24 Jul 2012, 19:14

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-24T13:12:31+02:00

I told Harp to post them, and I'd take a look at them.

Edit: By the way Harp, I'm not even going to consider modding any of the units until after the 3616 patch is released. The veterancy will be adjusted considerably in that update, so I belive it may address most of your concerns.

Statistics: Posted by Duck_42 — 24 Jul 2012, 13:12

Re: Veterancy and phantom X

2012-07-24T07:06:26+02:00

For 3rd or 4th time duck does not deal with this kind of game aspect and said before he does not deal with stuff like that.

The vet should be more balanced in the new fa version, that is when its released?

1st replay
4vs 1 phantom.. i thought the problem was phantom getting czar fast ? not innocent making one...
Also few things wrong on this style of play, grey has not scouted, couple t3 spy planes would have gone along way, his ability to use shields sucked lol and you micro'd the czar to get vet, wheres the problem?

good scouting also fact phantom was found early and killed his ally made it easier for u to get fast czar otherwise if i wa sin that game i would have pinged it and redirected everything i had to getting asf and land aa-t3.

2nd replay
not gonna bother watching a yotha walking slowly to someones base .. thats fail on who evers playing tbh lol. Also a good player can micro a yotha effectively to gain vet especially with engs around.

3rd replay
watched up to ripper killing blue and some of the argument, where u instantly blame the new vet and diesalot points out all the flaws in your argument, but you wont listen. I agree with diesalot on this one he did the correct thing almost killed it couple asf from pink or a few more shield even with vet that soul ripper would have been down. Infact if he had better shield coverage it would not even have had vet.

ok right so Your original argument was the pahntom could rush air exp to fast and nothing you could do, it would also vet up really fast and you would still lose?
first replay its an innocent getting czar in a 4 vs 1 phantom .. no point in showing this.
second yotha, wait was it not air? another failed replay
third, finally some proof wait no blue was just cybran crappy shields and no help from allies gg. if blues comm had been in water ripper may have gotten vet but the team efforts of innocents would have crashed it. Rippers are good for early hits on 1 person after that everyone is made aware example of this is teal building aa and almost killing the ripper.

The 4th replay might have yielded more interesting results, but if its another replay of poor shielding or mass asf covering the ripper in later game its a fail.

Also im very weary of cyrban players who go form t2 to t3 hives early and on t2 power.

Statistics: Posted by Commlink — 24 Jul 2012, 07:06