Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-05-14T22:03:29+02:00

So....this ever getting done?

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 14 May 2015, 22:03

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-16T19:48:16+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
theeggroll thanks you!!!

about your question
theeggroll wrote:there is one minor thing about this idea that i dont like, and that is that your rating should not determine your point gain. a 1300 vs 1300 should earn the same amount of points as 2000 vs 2000

reason for that is that i believe that the best clan is not suppost to be only clan from higher rated(skill) player and on same way is not suppose to be from most active player. When they would have same activity then i think that clan that would beat lower rated clan is suppost to be better in points table. So it is mix of activity + skill what would motivate increase both

But why should lower rated people have to be more active? Theoretically a 1300 playing a 1300 should be just as difficult as a 2000 playing a 2000. A clan of all 1300's beating a team of all 1500's should get the same amount of points as a clan of 1900's playing against a team of all 2100's. Yes, technically a higher level of skill is needed to play against people who are also higher rated, but thats the same type of mirror matchup.

Statistics: Posted by theeggroll — 16 Apr 2015, 19:48

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-15T21:18:33+02:00

theeggroll thanks you!!!

about your question

theeggroll wrote:
there is one minor thing about this idea that i dont like, and that is that your rating should not determine your point gain. a 1300 vs 1300 should earn the same amount of points as 2000 vs 2000

reason for that is that i believe that the best clan is not suppost to be only clan from higher rated(skill) player and on same way is not suppose to be from most active player. When they would have same activity then i think that clan that would beat lower rated clan is suppost to be better in points table. So it is mix of activity + skill what would motivate increase both

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 15 Apr 2015, 21:18

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-14T20:59:07+02:00

I think this is really cool. I honestly dont see what everyone is complaining about. Its not some huge ass tourney where everything is organized, its just a passive element to the game that allows you to get rewards for playing with your clan. The way I interpreted this, everyone just gets points for playing with their clan. Points = higher clan rating = chance at getting an avatar. This isnt one game lost and you're done, you can do this at any time. Maybe you have a good player in your clan, that player increases the average skill of your clan and therefore your clan gets more points. whats unfair about that? Low rated people can face off against low rated people. Low rated clans can challenge high rated clans and possibly get a bunch of extra points. Theres no time limit on BO3's, and since the time period is like 6 months, im sure if you do a clan challenge you'll have time to finish it. People, use your brains.

For those of you talking about how hard it is to get a game with your clan, go to replay vault and look through my replays. At LEAST half of the global games I play are with my clan, where random people join and play against us. Not only that, I have played games with my clan against players who are all in the same clan. How many of you have never seen a game hosted that says "RST vs you" or something similar? We host and play them all the time. Clan league would just mean that these games that Are already happening regularly for me and my clan (our average rating is about 1200ish, which is spot on for average faf players), are rewarded and we get points for them. On top of that, Anytime someone from our clan were to sayyy win prince of map, our clan gets some points for that as well.

(there is one minor thing about this idea that i dont like, and that is that your rating should not determine your point gain. a 1300 vs 1300 should earn the same amount of points as 2000 vs 2000)

Statistics: Posted by theeggroll — 14 Apr 2015, 20:59

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-14T12:32:00+02:00

speed2 wrote:
rozz_2528 wrote:The main problem i see in this idea is you said clan battles would be decided as a best out of 3 games. If all 3 games need to be played one after the other, its quite common for someone to have net issues, have pc problems, or basic IRL commitments. And some people have a window of a couple hours to play at a time. So what if the first game goes over 1 hour. They just forfeit and the clan loses? This idea seems good for an e sports layout. Not so much for casual online play.

Luckily there are many people in clan so if someone has to leave, others can replace. And if you have clan of 5 people who can play one hour per week, then you probably should not expect to be a winning clan.

And this player that will step in will be the same skill level? What if a clan loses their first game so they sub in someone better to try to secure the win? How is this thinking not elitist?

Statistics: Posted by rozz — 14 Apr 2015, 12:32

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-14T12:06:38+02:00

rozz_2528 wrote:
The main problem i see in this idea is you said clan battles would be decided as a best out of 3 games. If all 3 games need to be played one after the other, its quite common for someone to have net issues, have pc problems, or basic IRL commitments. And some people have a window of a couple hours to play at a time. So what if the first game goes over 1 hour. They just forfeit and the clan loses? This idea seems good for an e sports layout. Not so much for casual online play.

Luckily there are many people in clan so if someone has to leave, others can replace. And if you have clan of 5 people who can play one hour per week, then you probably should not expect to be a winning clan.

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 14 Apr 2015, 12:06

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-14T11:27:07+02:00

The main problem i see in this idea is you said clan battles would be decided as a best out of 3 games. If all 3 games need to be played one after the other, its quite common for someone to have net issues, have pc problems, or basic IRL commitments. And some people have a window of a couple hours to play at a time. So what if the first game goes over 1 hour. They just forfeit and the clan loses? This idea seems good for an e sports layout. Not so much for casual online play.

Statistics: Posted by rozz — 14 Apr 2015, 11:27

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-12T20:17:41+02:00

problem is that we are talking about 3 different things.

- im talking about base structure of league what is pretty similar as exist on other sport (of course with concrete details how integrate it for FAF, where FAF is specific because have small member base) this is what i was except discussion would be about.
- mozart is talking about add individual rating of player as part of clan rating -> what is total different as i was talking about
- other ppl are talking/asking about clan tournament and how to make that tournament -> what is part of league, but its total different as is this topic. This topic is structure that would fill up with tourney (and other potential clan competition) so is no reason talk here about tourney, because this topic is not about tourney, but about -league, that is above tourney and tourney is only part of it.

When we all are talking about different thinks of course discussion is going nowhere

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 12 Apr 2015, 20:17

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-12T19:06:42+02:00

Tokyto wrote:
To move on, how would you want to see it going on without custom games and tournaments?

Ehm, like i said it back when i suggested it...

First of all, it requires matchmaking and global rating changes to work. No matchmaker = lots of raging and butthurts.

Same as we have ladder and global rating leaderboards, introduce a clan leaderboard too where people will gain/lose points for their clan playing all their usual games without needing to make any extra effort.
This can be achieved in a really simple way but needs coding and math. The system should be able to detect if a player belongs to a clan when the game starts. If he does, then following rules apply depending on the outcome:

1v1 matchmaking:
adding X*Y points for the winner's clan and distracting from the loser's, where X is some standart number and Y is based on rating difference between players

Team matchmaking:
it gets a bit complicated here. need to come up with some formulas to calculate stuff
system detects how many players belong to different clans and distributes points accordingly, so in scenarios like 2(clan1)+2(clan2) vs 4(clan3) all clans participating are taking part in calculations. also, dont know yet how it should act if there are members of same clan on both sides.

Anyway, dont wanna argue anymore. All these "ideas" threads where people cant agree on anything are going nowhere.
Just wanted to share mine, not really sure why now

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 12 Apr 2015, 19:06

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-12T18:36:12+02:00

Ok so about rating, points and all that crap. If you look back, i suggestested introducing same leaderboards for clans as we have for global rating, so effectively its all the same in my eyes - rating, points, w/e you call it - just numbers.

as i said, HUGE difference there, the whole idea is based on it so its not ''just numbers''. Points system wil never work, unless you reset it very often (leaderboards based on what? Magic? You need rating/points)

But the line i drew to wwpc is something you seem not to get. What wwpc and your suggestion share in common is that people need to organize their games to take part in the event (although not so neccessary in your case). And it sometimes gets hard to do, takes a lot of time and effort for some people to the point they cant or dont want to play in it anymore. And for this kind of major clan activity i think is unacceptable. Better come up with different system that is fun and fair and does not limit players for their time - the one which they can be part of simply by playing in FAF as they usually do.

You dont get my concept correctly. It should basically create clan rating, which can be affected by playing games with your teamnates, so i still dont understound why are you comparing this to WWPC, its completely different, not even remotely close, in WWPC you have to schelude match with you opponent, multiple times a week sometimes. You dont have to schelude anything here, you just play. And if its hard for you to get 4v4, play 1v1 or 2v2. Problem solved. You are still talking about some ''events'' which i didnt mention anywhere. Only that you CAN obtain clan rating via different ways then just playing custom games, like Galactic Colosseum, which is yearly? event.

And on top of that you can add tourneys and all that stuff which requires extra organization and offers more rewards.

Thats the whole thing we are trying to accomlish here, so i take this as a good thing?
Also you dont have to do it every weekend. It can be done every 5 years if you dont feel like playing + you dont have to participate at all, its not forcing you to, at all.

Next, about your "i dont fear the stack" passage, that is totally wrong approach. You wanna base your system on your personal view how games should be played, but how many people does share that view? More and more among which you play? But there are many more others that you dont play with Instead, you should try and make it fair for all players where they cant calculate their chance to win or make decision if they should play before the game starts - then there will be competition and motivation. Right now its just sheer enthusiasm to play in it like in any tourney we had so far. In that case just dont make it a continuous event then where players can arrange their games at any time throughout the year (?) and make it as yet another tourney.

I though people stopped bitching about it a while ago, but well, lets talk about it, whats exactly is stack? So according to you stack is people from one clan/party playing together(am i wrong?)... well then we cant do any clan system based on custom games at all can we?(which was by the way, your idea too). According to me its 50% balance, which wont be any good to neither clan and players (maybe for them becouse +30 points). And i dont see matchmaker helping this in any way (couse you may get people in your team you dont want to play with), also people might just quit and escalete the problem.
Also If you only play vs weaker enemies then whats the point in playing? Is this really only my personal view? I dont think so. What i think is that people want to play balanced and interesting games with people they can rely on, so the problem here isnt the ''clan/party team'', its the opposing team which is composed of overrated or ''noob'' players. So to sum up. By your argument we should just drop the whole idea and just go for tournaments? which you also dont like becouse people have to arrenge times, so we are left with what exactly? (Tournament every half a year?)
Then you said

Instead, you should try and make it fair for all players where they cant calculate their chance to win or make decision if they should play before the game starts

How exactly? There isnt any way in my knowledge(and no, matchmaker isnt going to solve anything, people will play 2 games with it, ennding up with random teamnates against a clan, and never use it again).

To move on, how would you want to see it going on without custom games and tournaments?

Statistics: Posted by Tokyto — 12 Apr 2015, 18:36

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-12T18:50:13+02:00

Blodir wrote:
How about just make it swiss-style tournament played every weekend for like 2 months, clan with most points at the end wins ...
After some months do it again, maybe seasonally (champion of global supcom clan tournament summer sounds awesome)

but what you describe is tourney. This topic is not about tourney, but about league.
this swiss-style tournament would be awesome, but league is more as one tourney what is part of league.
Basically league can lead to final clan tournament, but because its not one-shot event it will not disperser when tournament end. Clans would still have motivation to play clan competition battles even when tournament end.

I dont reinvent wheel its pretty similar as it work in other sports. Athlete go for tourney take metal, point, and credit that qualify then for other more prestige tournament, have good place on other tournament and can go on other tournament.. Best athlete is not that who win one concrete tournament but that what would be on most of them on best place.

For example tennis, when tennis player would refuse play on tourney they would not have enough point to qualify on Australia open, so doesnt mater that he would win it, when dont play other tourney he would not be champion.. And then who is better that one who will win australia open, or that who win grand slam ? Best is that one who would have most point in table -> point which gather from all potential tourney.
for example 2: formula 1/tour de france -> its not best that who will win one part of it, but that who will end on best possible place in total. Someone can win most of part and still would not be first in total... and still on this example, that is not only about individual, but also about team, where competitors are part of team where best team is that who have most of best competitor, and dont looks on that how many competitors have. You have ferarry, McLeren, redbull etc.. pretty similar as clan.

I want to have it same, or at least pretty similar as on other sports. It dont need be reinvent wheel

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 12 Apr 2015, 17:51

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-12T16:43:10+02:00

How about just make it swiss-style tournament played every weekend for like 2 months, clan with most points at the end wins ...
After some months do it again, maybe seasonally (champion of global supcom clan tournament summer sounds awesome)

Don't reinvent the wheel

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 12 Apr 2015, 16:43

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-12T16:37:46+02:00

Tokyto wrote:
I disagree with just 95% of what you said

Ok so about rating, points and all that crap. If you look back, i suggestested introducing same leaderboards for clans as we have for global rating, so effectively its all the same in my eyes - rating, points, w/e you call it - just numbers.

But the line i drew to wwpc is something you seem not to get. What wwpc and your suggestion share in common is that people need to organize their games to take part in the event (although not so neccessary in your case). And it sometimes gets hard to do, takes a lot of time and effort for some people to the point they cant or dont want to play in it anymore. And for this kind of major clan activity i think is unacceptable. Better come up with different system that is fun and fair and does not limit players for their time - the one which they can be part of simply by playing in FAF as they usually do. And on top of that you can add tourneys and all that stuff which requires extra organization and offers more rewards.

Next, about your "i dont fear the stack" passage, that is totally wrong approach. You wanna base your system on your personal view how games should be played, but how many people does share that view? More and more among which you play? But there are many more others that you dont play with Instead, you should try and make it fair for all players where they cant calculate their chance to win or make decision if they should play before the game starts - then there will be competition and motivation. Right now its just sheer enthusiasm to play in it like in any tourney we had so far. In that case just dont make it a continuous event then where players can arrange their games at any time throughout the year (?) and make it as yet another tourney.

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 12 Apr 2015, 16:37

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-12T15:35:09+02:00

Mad`Mozart wrote:
I disagree with everything you said

I disagree with just 95% of what you said

First, what is that rating you are talking about and how is it different from points? Isnt it the same thing?
There is HUGE difference between points and rating man, rating is a number that define somebody's skill, while points you have to collect (no limit)
It would work just like Global rating, just for Clans
Second, why are you so convinced that what you suggest will work?
Well why wouldn't it work? All you need is to fill a game by ''random'' people (or even another clan)
Look at the 2v2 wwpc thread and think about your usual waiting time when hosting a game. Its already hard to organize and get the games going.
Clan league wont be anywhere popular like this just because it will be hard to play it for most people. First of all its time zone problems,
There is absolutely 0 similiarity with WWPC tournaments, so you can't possibly compare these two. Usually people from same clan play with each other pretty often, so no time zones problems.
if its a single event like a tourney its not a big deal for people to organize their time and play when they usually dont, but if its a continuous event like you plan it to be, its too much trouble.
There would be a possibility to gain rating from tourneys like Galactic Colloseum, which is a single event.
Uhm, i dont plan any continuous event?
Well and then comes Fear of the Stack ( ) people will be likely not to play whenever the game is hosted and stacked by one clan if they dont think they can win. Because they have a choice not to play since its a custom game.
I don't fear stack, as well as more and more people lately. It's more like a challenge for me to play against a good players, which can cooperate well (stack). Maybe it will fill slower then casual games, but i think it will fill anyway. Honestly i dont know why are people so bothered with this, they can play against ai:easy if they want their opponents to have 0 teampaly
Ppl have a choice not to play your matchmaker stack either (ragequit, ala free Clan rating)

So if talking about encouraging clans and clan activity in the lobby we need a better system that is easy to use for all players at any time where it wont matter when you play, how many teammates you have or how skilled are you.
I think this combinated system is best we can do (btw its based on yours), you can play 1v1s to 6v6s with it. It shouldnt be hard to get some nice equations to calculate Clan rating income. Example:

Spoiler: show

And i believe my idea can offer all of it.
Ofc your idea offer a lot of it, i based it on your idea god damn it
Also the matchmaker will solve the Fear of the Stack problem where people cant make a choice not to play if they see a superior team/player. Right now its the biggest problem of current global rating system cause people can decide when they play for points, and when they're not.
I dont see any mathmaker in lobby unfortunately, but i agree here, it would improve it a lot, about rating system: it works somewhat and is pretty accurate, it could be better indeed, but it works jsut enough

Also the clan tourneys idea, tourneys are always nice and cool. Maybe can use them to introduce clan divisions same as we have player divisions (t1, t2, etc) where clans move up playing in tourneys.[/quote]
Yes they are, thats why i included them in my concept
Wouldnt work for clans imo, only for bigger quantity of palyers

Statistics: Posted by Tokyto — 12 Apr 2015, 15:35

Re: Clan league ! [concept]

2015-04-12T15:20:35+02:00

Kalvirox wrote:
Just a side note:
If this does become a reality (and I hope it does because clan wars are cool) Can we not have it during the exam period please?
tyvm

This concept dont have specific time where it would be play. It operate with tourney, also with potential clan wars tourney and another activity that have precise settle time, but you can eject game and it would still work well.

So yes it would not be on exam period

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 12 Apr 2015, 15:20