Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-30T16:45:30+02:00

Vee. I have found that Yhenzees are better than riptides because they are faster than riptides and so are not as outrun as easily.
Can we move this forum page back the the issue at hand please? You know, Shooting through walls.

Statistics: Posted by Kalvirox — 30 Nov 2014, 16:45

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-30T12:42:40+02:00

What's important is that you can concentrate the units to all be able to shoot, whereas with navy this is more difficult.
Also, units tend to miss hovertanks.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 30 Nov 2014, 12:42

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-30T12:43:53+02:00

It's easy to underestimate just how many frigates you need to equal the mass of a bunch of hovertanks. A riptide is actually much more expensive than a frigate, and the unit looks smaller. So if you make 3000 mass in frigates it will look like a huge navy, but if you make 3000 mass in riptides it will look like a small navy. If you test mass vs mass, then frigates do win very well with proper micro (especially cybran frigs).

Also the production to spend a given amount of mass in frigates is a large number of t1 naval factories (which are also big), compared to a smaller number of t2 land factories (which look smaller). So it's also easy to underestimate just how many t1 naval facs you need to keep up with a t2 hover spam.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 30 Nov 2014, 12:41

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-30T12:35:30+02:00

I think the key thing about using them for anti-navy is the space navy has to micro in: the smaller the water, the easier it is to win vs navy.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 30 Nov 2014, 12:35

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-30T11:39:22+02:00

As I have found out, Amphi tanks are actually better than frigates in some circumstances and they can go onto islands and kill Everything. If you use Yhenzees and mix in flak its really difficult to stop. Except because most boats are faster they can outrun you, if you surround and get in the middle of a naval fleet with them they will kill everything. I have several replays proving this including one where I didn't build any navy untill 18:30 and still killed my mirrors navy

Statistics: Posted by Kalvirox — 30 Nov 2014, 11:39

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-29T23:13:47+02:00

Kalvirox wrote:
keyser wrote:not talking about balance :
i though only wagner were able to fire over wall. having that little bonus to make up for the rhino completelly ruin by pd. (+ wagner not being an hover)
maybe we should fix walls not to become as random as it is now. like zlo said build wall first or after pd can change the effectiveness of the wall, which is stupid imo.
we should be able to know if a random unit is able to deal damage to the pd. like we all know that 100% rhino are stop by the wall, would be great to set a % of shot being able to get through/over the wall for each unit. like maybe 70% of mantis shot can get through wall on a flat ground.
and that % can't be affected by first wall/pd. and only affected by the positioning thank to the terrain. (good/bad pd placement)

Personally I think walls should stop all t2 units except from ilshies (because their guns are mounted higher than the rest of the tanks) but this is probably bad and I'll accept that. The thing with amphibious tanks though is it makes it almost near impossible to stop an amphi tank runby on a naval map. The fact that they can shoot over walls makes it impossible to stop. That's a balance thing that I shall suggest on a different thread, Right now the fact that they fire through walls is a bug.

The order in which PD is built and changes its affects is odd though and is something worth creating another thread about. If this is broken, It needs fixing. Currently, patch 3636 is due in the near future and so its not worth adding anything to it last minuite.

Cybran have Hoplites which imo deal with t1 PD better than medusas do..

And having a percentage of shots getting through walls would just make people build multiple walls.

but for Cybran is piece cake to stop T2 hover spam, right?!

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 29 Nov 2014, 23:13

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-29T16:17:42+02:00

"Hoplites" i've completelly forgot about this (under-use) unit.

And having a percentage of shots getting through walls would just make people build multiple walls.

hmm pretty sure we can make wall only effective (with a %) only 1 layer, so 2 layers won't affect that. but need to think about how to do that.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 29 Nov 2014, 16:17

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-29T14:45:53+02:00

keyser wrote:
not talking about balance :
i though only wagner were able to fire over wall. having that little bonus to make up for the rhino completelly ruin by pd. (+ wagner not being an hover)
maybe we should fix walls not to become as random as it is now. like zlo said build wall first or after pd can change the effectiveness of the wall, which is stupid imo.
we should be able to know if a random unit is able to deal damage to the pd. like we all know that 100% rhino are stop by the wall, would be great to set a % of shot being able to get through/over the wall for each unit. like maybe 70% of mantis shot can get through wall on a flat ground.
and that % can't be affected by first wall/pd. and only affected by the positioning thank to the terrain. (good/bad pd placement)

Personally I think walls should stop all t2 units except from ilshies (because their guns are mounted higher than the rest of the tanks) but this is probably bad and I'll accept that. The thing with amphibious tanks though is it makes it almost near impossible to stop an amphi tank runby on a naval map. The fact that they can shoot over walls makes it impossible to stop. That's a balance thing that I shall suggest on a different thread, Right now the fact that they fire through walls is a bug.

The order in which PD is built and changes its affects is odd though and is something worth creating another thread about. If this is broken, It needs fixing. Currently, patch 3636 is due in the near future and so its not worth adding anything to it last minuite.

Cybran have Hoplites which imo deal with t1 PD better than medusas do..

And having a percentage of shots getting through walls would just make people build multiple walls.

Statistics: Posted by Kalvirox — 29 Nov 2014, 14:45

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-29T13:21:22+02:00

not talking about balance :
i though only wagner were able to fire over wall. having that little bonus to make up for the rhino completelly ruin by pd. (+ wagner not being an hover)
maybe we should fix walls not to become as random as it is now. like zlo said build wall first or after pd can change the effectiveness of the wall, which is stupid imo.
we should be able to know if a random unit is able to deal damage to the pd. like we all know that 100% rhino are stop by the wall, would be great to set a % of shot being able to get through/over the wall for each unit. like maybe 70% of mantis shot can get through wall on a flat ground.
and that % can't be affected by first wall/pd. and only affected by the positionning thank to the terrain. (good/bad pd placement)

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 29 Nov 2014, 13:21

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-29T11:01:56+02:00

ZLO_RD wrote:
i think walls are so weird right now, that ORDER in witch you make walls and pd can affect result... (walls 1rst or PD 1rst)

also walls around t1 pd will only protect against rhinos maybe... other things just ignore walls

Which is the conclusion I have come too, and from it springs 2 questions. Does it occur because of a bug (what we are testing), and Should it occur because, as I have come to realise over the past few days is that mass Amphi tank beats everything on a naval map, if they can shoot over walls then stopping them becomes extremely difficult. But that second part is for another discussion thread, please no posts about balance here.

Statistics: Posted by Kalvirox — 29 Nov 2014, 11:01

Re: Amphi Tanks

2014-11-29T11:09:25+02:00

i think walls are so weird right now, that ORDER in witch you make walls and pd can affect result... (walls 1rst or PD 1rst)

also walls around t1 pd will only protect against rhinos maybe... other things just ignore walls

Edit: i mean walls around t1 antiair PD will only protect from rhinos

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 29 Nov 2014, 09:49

Amphi Tanks

2014-11-28T21:06:10+02:00

Amphi Tanks vs Walled PD Test.
So, I noticed in a game that wagners can shoot through walls and kill PD. I am subsequently test to see if all t2 tanks can shoot
through them.
I used UEF walls

Wagners.
Results. Wagners Killed PD but they shot just over the walls. They walls had litterally no effect.

Yhenzee
Result. Same again, They killed PD because they shot through the walls. I don’t know whether the firing arc fires the projectile over the walls or not, but I don’t think they do.
Worth testing for yourself.

Blaze
Result. Same again, They killed PD because they shot through the walls. This one is worth testing for yourself again because some shots do go over the walls and it’s hard to tell.

Riptide
Result. Same again, They killed PD because they shot through the walls. About half the shots went over the wall though that may just be the animation.

Should t2 tanks shoot over walls, No otherwise, as has been proved on numerous occasions to me.. Building navy is actually cost inefficient if you can just roll your opponents islands with Amphi tanks and you cannot stop them. When PD would work against all t2 tanks.

Test against 6 lines of walls with groundfire. Some Tanks shot through and some shot over but all the shots were eventually stopped by the walls.

Can someone else please test this? The animation looks like it goes through when you change the camera angle so it is on the floor but the damage doesn’t.

EDIT: after further testing with icedreamer, Wall corners stop the projectile, wall faces don't. THis was only tested on Wagner and Riptide. Once again using UEF walls
Kalvirox

Statistics: Posted by Kalvirox — 28 Nov 2014, 21:06