Forged Alliance Forever

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-04-14T18:59:32+02:00

rxnnxs wrote:
how nice it would be to have your problems. me, as a cybran commander are kind of jealous about the option to have a tech upgrade AND the gun upgrade.

Filthy liar if you were a real cybran commander, why would you be jealous of the inferior factions? ;D

Statistics: Posted by Ceneraii — 14 Apr 2015, 18:59

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-04-14T18:31:55+02:00

how nice it would be to have your problems. me, as a cybran commander are kind of jealous about the option to have a tech upgrade AND the gun upgrade.

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 14 Apr 2015, 18:31

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-04-14T12:10:59+02:00

Tremarl wrote:
you could just avoid the "missed shot" overkill by changing targets.

This is not really possible cause you want to keep your acu moving. Also you need to micro army as well, sometisem managing base, engies...

Statistics: Posted by speed2 — 14 Apr 2015, 12:10

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-04-14T11:16:39+02:00

you could just avoid the "missed shot" overkill by changing targets.

Statistics: Posted by Tremarl — 14 Apr 2015, 11:16

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-27T08:13:24+02:00

Goldy3 wrote:
UEF gun upgrade 200 damage.

Aurora = 140 hp -> 1 shot kill = 60 overkill.
Mantis = 270 hp -> 2 shot kill = 70 overkill.
Striker = 300 hp -> 2 shot kill = 100 overkill. <- yep
Thaam = 280 hp -> 2 shot kill = 80 overkill.

Cybran gun upgrade

Aurora = 140 hp -> 2 shot kill+(100 missing dmg)shooting wrecks = 160 overkill.
Mantis = 270 hp -> 3 shot kill+(100 missing dmg)shooting wrecks = 170 overkill.
Striker = 300 hp -> 3 shot kill+(100 missing dmg)shooting wrecks = 100 overkill. <- yep
Thaam = 280 hp -> 2 shot kill+(100 missing dmg)shooting wrecks = 180 overkill.

wrong math,
for UEF gun:
mantis 130 overkill
Thaam 120 overkill
for other guns:
mantis 130 overkill
thaam 120 overkill

maybe i am not getting what you mean or something

all your points and arguments based on what you saying that gun upgraide isto weak, i think it will be hard to proove that to us

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 27 Mar 2015, 08:13

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-27T06:45:34+02:00

Goldy3 wrote:
Controversial for some, but I think the ACU gun upgrade isn't really worth it. Reason being is that it has a tendency to overkill in the sense that it fires on units that already been killed, wasting a shot that could've went to other units.

Example scenario with the gun upgrade:

10 Strikers each with 300 hit points.

Takes 3 shots ( Vanilla ACU gun doing 100 damage each)

With gun-upgrade, high potential for a wasted shot before re-targeting the next unit. Wasted shot damage is 100. Wasted shot is due to the following reasons: Range between ACU and target, Fire-rate and Projectile speed. These issues all add up to wasted shots.

with 10 Strikers x 100 damage wasted before re-targeting = 1000 missing damage.

You could've killed a extra 3 more strikers (Since strikers have 300 hp x 3 Striker units = 900 damage needed to kill 3 strikers) with that missing damage! Huge!

I propose the following:

Instead of a faster fire-rate. Make the gun-upgrade increase damage instead, while keeping the fire-rate the same as a Un-upgraded ACU. Matching the dps that would've been gained from a fire-rate increase. This would decrease overkill dramatically.

So for example: IF (I'm not sure) the fire-rate increase on the current gun upgrade increased dps to 300. 100 dmg-per-shot / .33 fire-rate = 303 dps.

THEN:

with my gun upgrade proposal the damage would be. 300 dmg-per-shot / 1 fire-rate = 300 dps.

So it would be the same dps that we have now, just put into damage instead of fire-rate. Thanks.

Don't even have to read your whole bla bla.

One word : RANGE. Magical.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 27 Mar 2015, 06:45

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-26T08:57:54+02:00

Your calculation is wrong btw you calculated in your list only up to 300 damage done for uef acu but you have done 400 with 2 shots so the overkill is in all cases except aurora +100 for uef gun. Uef gun is only better vs t1 arti and aurora with a bit less overkill. But what happens even more often is that units are moving and the shots are missing completely. then uef has double overkill and fast fire rate will hit earlier. Then if the targets come closer to the enemy and the acu is shooting with fast fire rate on short range all acus have half overkill of uef acu because they have hardly any. I would say there is no difference in all those acu upgrades they are all fine no matter how. The biggest advantage is anyways the range especially vs t2 for overcharge.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 26 Mar 2015, 08:57

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-26T03:26:36+02:00

It's mostly about the range really, the damage is just an added bonus, albeit a rather nice one.

Personally I think it's one of the best upgrades you can get.

Statistics: Posted by Ceneraii — 26 Mar 2015, 03:26

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-26T01:16:42+02:00

Goldy3, I don't think I have ever gotten the gun upgrade for the damage ever..... it is a nice side effect, but honestly if it ONLY gave the range upgrade I would still pay for it. Overcharge does most of the damage for your ACU, and the extra range is what you need to reach out and kill units from further away, and potentially outrange your enemy's ACU in order to damage without taking any yourself.

The range is the key component. Damage is good, range is better.

Statistics: Posted by BRNKoINSANITY — 26 Mar 2015, 01:16

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-26T01:12:37+02:00

Like Koppa says even with wasting a shot they take the same time to kill as the uef com (assuming not aurora)

Taking your first example with 10 strikers, that would normally take 30 seconds to kill. If they are at max range and fire the missing shots and ignoring retargeting time they will take 20 seconds to kill. Those 3 extra strikers will take another 6 seconds to kill. So that wasted damage still puts you ahead.

At close range where you don't waste the extra shots you are sitting at a nice 1.5s/striker. 15 seconds for those first 10 strikers and an extra 4.5 of the other 3. Way ahead.

The only advantage the UEF gun has is against aurora and its not as obvious if you do not look at your opponents commander model.

Edit: apparently I should have hit submit earlier instead of leaving it sitting in the box for an hour

Statistics: Posted by Deering — 26 Mar 2015, 01:12

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-26T01:08:56+02:00

Yes I do see what you mean. If anything it means the fire-rate upgrade comes out on top if you go really close range.

Statistics: Posted by Goldy3 — 26 Mar 2015, 01:08

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-26T00:42:27+02:00

In reality the only difference where the kind of gun upgrade makes is the Aurora vs. UEF situation, all other tanks die in 3 hits so essentially it is the same overkill.

Now, every 1 sec UEF fires gun for 200 damage (which means it is 2 sec to kill any T1 tank (except Aurora))

Double rate of fire is 2 shots per second meaning that it takes 1.5 seconds to kill a T1 tank but with an extra wasted shot wasting .5 seconds, meaning it is also 2 seconds to kill each tank.

See what I mean?

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 26 Mar 2015, 00:42

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-26T00:10:30+02:00

Kopia wrote:
You're completly missing the fact that it makes no difference whatsoever.

Both overkill by 100 dps, there is nothing you can do about it.

Yes I agree, I was just using the striker as an example for the issue.

UEF gun upgrade 200 damage.

Aurora = 140 hp -> 1 shot kill = 60 overkill.
Mantis = 270 hp -> 2 shot kill = 70 overkill.
Striker = 300 hp -> 2 shot kill = 100 overkill. <- yep
Thaam = 280 hp -> 2 shot kill = 80 overkill.

Cybran gun upgrade

Aurora = 140 hp -> 2 shot kill+(100 missing dmg)shooting wrecks = 160 overkill.
Mantis = 270 hp -> 3 shot kill+(100 missing dmg)shooting wrecks = 170 overkill.
Striker = 300 hp -> 3 shot kill+(100 missing dmg)shooting wrecks = 100 overkill. <- yep
Thaam = 280 hp -> 2 shot kill+(100 missing dmg)shooting wrecks = 180 overkill.

Statistics: Posted by Goldy3 — 26 Mar 2015, 00:10

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-25T23:45:13+02:00

You're completly missing the fact that it makes no difference whatsoever.

Both overkill by 100 dps, there is nothing you can do about it.

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 25 Mar 2015, 23:45

Re: A Discussion on the ACU Gun Upgrade. Why I think it's sh

2015-03-25T23:18:00+02:00

Kopia wrote:
ok to clear up some things

a) that solution is already UEF gun comm, and it does not fix anything because it is 100 overkill in the same amount of time (you just can't see the missed shot as it does 2x damage instead of 2x fire-rate)
b) gun upgrade dps is 200, not 300
c) gun upgrade is one of the most useful upgrades, as if you rush it, your mirror has to as well as their ACU cannot stand up to yours
d) continuing the above point, T1 and T2 is useless against such a commander (and T3 until critical mass is reached)
e) the overkill is sometimes nasty, but the range is the most important part of the gun upgrade
f) regular ACU takes 20 T1 tanks to kill, if such an ACU does 2x damage and it has extra range I would say you would need 35-40 T1tanks to kill it

a) yes and I think it's fine. it 2 shots for all T1, 1 shot for Aeon T1 then moves on to the next target with none of that wasted shot on wrecks that you get with the fire-rate one. I'm sure that if you'd do a comparison the damage upgrade fairs better than the fire-rate upgrade.
b) I was just making a example, I didn't know.
c) I know, however doesn't ignore that shots are being wasted on wrecks due to the fire-rate.
e) yes, but I wanted to talk about the overkilling units after there dead phenomenon. I have no issues about range.

There's still wreck overkill, the gun upgrade that increases damage is better than the fire-rate upgrade.

Morax wrote:
First of all, you are leaving out a key element of the gun upgrade:

"Range of Attack"

This range increase gives the ACU the ability to fight Aurora tank (which has a higher range than the standard ACU) and larger groups of more buffed units like the UEF M1A2 tank at a safer range, keeping your ACU's health in check with an aggressive play.

Second, the UEF has an increased damage/range like you speak of. If you like that combination better I suggest playing as that faction. It's actually QUITE difficult to combat a UEF comm with the gun upgrade, and if the damn walking tank has T2 suite it's 15,000 hp without vet makes it a small experimental...

Third, the Aeon has an extended range with the same damage fire rate, plus it has an increased fire rate upgrade. The two together make the Aeon ACU one of the most feared at earlier stages if it is upgraded. Most T2 units don't even stand a chance getting near a properly micro'ed Aeon ACU with a good e-supply and feed to OC them.

I suggest looking into these options and avoid Cybran/Seraphim if you don't like it.

Hope that helps.

Yep, I have no qualms over the range of the gun upgrade. Nor do I have issue with Aeon or UEF.. It's the "killing units that are already dead" phenomenon that I have issue with.

Statistics: Posted by Goldy3 — 25 Mar 2015, 23:18