Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-20T17:26:05+02:00

Or make the splits non-homing, like proper random shrapnel,,, Just throwing this out there again... Faction diversity preserved, the missile still gets through, it's just not obnoxiously strong when it does so...

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 20 Feb 2015, 17:26

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-19T15:28:12+02:00

one way to simply solve that problem is to increase TMD HP (that way it cannot be killed by a single TML) and decrease time to build it (that way you can react quicker to a TML).

Statistics: Posted by SilverKronos — 19 Feb 2015, 15:28

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-18T16:11:07+02:00

I agree nerf it.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 18 Feb 2015, 16:11

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-11T13:23:01+02:00

you already said that in your last post and I did not argue against it.

a left alone TMD dies against cybran TML Missile even when it faces in the direction it comes from.
thats for sure.

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 11 Feb 2015, 13:23

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-11T00:20:22+02:00

you cannot kill a tmd with a usual tml uef/sera/aeon even if turret has to turn 180°.
do test.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 11 Feb 2015, 00:20

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-10T21:34:04+02:00

keyser wrote:
the "bug" 180° turn doesn't really apply. It happen approximetelly once every 50 times you try. And since tml keep his direction toward where the last missile came from, you have only 1 chance to abuse it. So, you can't use that as an argument..

nope, thats not right.
1. it happens often. the second missile can slip through if the 180° watchaway thing kicked in. just shoot over a TMD with missiles and the turret has to turn back and forth. especially if cybran missiles are used and the turrent went in homing position. it happens even when he just has to turn 90°. he shoots the first missile, she splits (or survives), he follows, shoots again, meanwhile the second missile is in the sky (player driven) to the other side and the turret has not enough time to shoot at that one twice.
2. they go back after a very short time. always looking south...

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 10 Feb 2015, 21:34

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-11T21:47:03+02:00

The UEF TMD is fine except for the fact that it has to rotate, so if you fire a missile to one side of the thing then to the other, it has to rotate 180 degrees to intercept missiles as they hit on either side of the thing. If a missile gets behind it for some reason, then it winds up facing away from incoming missiles. This need to rotate makes them pretty poor in general against a player who knows how to exploit this.

ok so, as i said there is only the tml that i listed that can kill a tmd.

the "bug" 180° turn doesn't really apply. It happen approximetelly once every 50 times you try. And since tml keep his direction toward where the last missile came from, you have only 1 chance to abuse it. So, you can't use that as an argument.

therefore, tmd defend well every static tml non cybran, even at the edge of their ring. Ok, there is a tiny zone where tmd will shoot only once and won't kill missile. But this zone is that much tiny, that it's nearly impossible to abuse.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 10 Feb 2015, 21:26

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-10T21:31:57+02:00

Flamingo wrote:
...They're so cost effective that every time you intercept two missiles, you have could afford to build another TMD plus a little extra left over.

here we go!

Blodir wrote:
I used to do this, then I grew bored of it,

so you used it to get to the rating you have now, and now you sit on it well, i am just making fun.

but this also means, all can use it, still now, and after a while they get bored.

wouldn't it be fair that today all those who did not do it in the past can have their fun today or tomorrow until they got bored of it?

and how do those aeon TMDs behave in this case? they rule (in this special case, in others they suck), dont they?
hmm, i would say thats faction diversity.

another case is the heading of the units. are they always facing south?
then this would be some big disadvantage for the south team...

by the way, if a new patch comes up that changes stuff, all ratings should be resetted to 0!
oh yes!

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 10 Feb 2015, 21:23

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-10T19:19:20+02:00

keyser wrote:
Flamingo wrote:Out of curiosity, why do players want a single TMD to stop a Cybran TML? Tactical missiles usually have a health of 2 and therefore require two TMDs to stop them. If you fire a single missile at a single TMD, the TMD will die. I'm not sure I understand how it's balance to make it so the Cybrans are stopped by half the defensive investment.

If a single Cybran TML is killing two TMDs in a single shot, then yeah, TMDs are less cost-effective than the TML. But a single TMD doesn't stop any kind of tactical missile at all, Cybran or otherwise. If you make it so one TMD stops one Cybran missile, then the Cybrans have objectively the worst TMLs. I thought the split missile thing was why the parent missile has 1 HP in the first place - because the splitting gives them 3 HP effectively but with reduced damage after being intercepted once, not because it's ideal for Cyrbans to never bother with their TMLs.

pls don't write shit (i'm sorry, but i don't like when people write things without knowing how the game works. Do test then comeback when you have something interesting to say).
there is only 2 tml that can kill 1 tmd.

1st one is the cybran tml : 1 tmd shot to kill the main missile, 2nd tmd shot to kill 1 of the 3 baby missile. There is 2 baby missiles left that kill the tmd.

2nd one is the sera ACU tml. And the missile can kill a uef tmd when the sera ACU is close to the tmd. Or when the tmd is at more than 2/3 of the range the sera acyu tml.

Now I am not writing shit and it's disrespectful to assume I don't know how the game works just because I haven't sat down and tested TMLs and TMDs in a sandbox vacuum. The TMDs function in different ways. The Aeon TMD can disrupt a number of incoming missiles at once, which means a single Aeon TMD serves as a good defense at all times, but it has a very limited range compared to other TMDs. Since it diverts missiles instead of attacking them, the Aeon have no problem at all with the Cybran split missile where defenses are concerned - at least within the broad discussion of tactical missiles.

The Cybran TMD is considered the best of the group because their TMD is laser-based and will instantly fire the minute a missile enters their attack range. They don't need to rotate, so no matter what's going on around them, they will fire on incoming missiles.

The UEF TMD is fine except for the fact that it has to rotate, so if you fire a missile to one side of the thing then to the other, it has to rotate 180 degrees to intercept missiles as they hit on either side of the thing. If a missile gets behind it for some reason, then it winds up facing away from incoming missiles. This need to rotate makes them pretty poor in general against a player who knows how to exploit this.

The Sera TMD is like the UEF TMD, but it rotates faster.

Now all that said, no TMD is reliable to stop any kind of missile fired at a target at the edge of their radius. That much I know for sure. To prevent any damage from occurring, the TMD still needs enough time to tag the missile twice. That means that if you build a single TMD at the center of your base and call it good, you'll only be protecting structures far enough behind the TMD that it takes two seconds or so for a missile to reach them after entering the TMD's radius. Other factions do full damage if they can land in less than two seconds.

The Cybran TML, however, is actually much worse if firing at the edge of a TMD's radius because it will split and do less than half the damage. It's only got 1 HP. This creates a problem, because if your plan is to nerf the Cybran TML to the point where it can't kill a TMD, then you're screwing up behavior when the TML isn't targeting a TMD as well. It would make them terrible - basically worse than every other missile. I'd rather have a missile with 2 HP that does 6,000 damage, with potential to do that full damage if the timing is good, rather than a missile with 1 HP that would split on the first intercept and do only 1,200 damage instead if all three missiles make it - because correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the missiles lose momentum when they split (this 1,200 damage number is in the assumption that we nerf damage to where child missiles can't kill a TMD).

What you're proposing is a very harsh nerf. Hard enough that you're fundamentally reversing the advantage of the split missile and making it a liability. I was under the mistaken impression that Cybran missiles only split into two, but maybe that's because I'm used to seeing only two of the three child missiles land on a mark. Even if you made it to where the Cybran missile split into two so you could intercept half the child missiles, if you let the children still do a combined total of 2,500 damage, the second missile would still kill your lone TMD.

I understand that you don't like having to build two TMDs to defend against tactical missiles, but I was under the apparently misguided impression that this was standard practice anyway because TMDs are significantly more cost-effective than TMLs and you need at least two if you want a reliable defense. They're so cost effective that every time you intercept two missiles, you have could afford to build another TMD plus a little extra left over. On top of that, at some point your base should be shielded anyway because bombers are still a thing - which invalidates the complaints about defending far-flung mexes from missiles because it's not like those mexes aren't vulnerable to practically everything. Distant mexes are always hard to defend, and you can only keep them if you're being aggressive - that's why turtle play is discouraged, because you can't and shouldn't be able to hold the map when you turtle. Not unless we want incredibly stagnant, boring games.

There's one complaint in this thread that I would give some validation to, and that's the complaint that a TML can be reclaimed once the player realized the TMDs can hold off the missiles. Fair enough, I suppose - this is true. But have you guys considered building a TML of your own to keep your opponents honest? Really, if you're both building TMDs, I don't see how this translates into a massive loss for the UEF and Sera players - the Cybrans have to build extra TMDs too, but I think it would be silly to claim a lack of balance in a mirror match. Every time you build a TMD it costs you 1.5 T2 tanks, basically.

Yes, if you turtle like crazy eventually that costs you a battalion, but if you're just covering your base and build four TMDs in case of missiles and not because you sat back and let your opponent spam TMLs like it's Christmas and the missiles are stocking-stuffers, then that only cost you six tanks. Six. If your opponent fires even one missile at you and you intercept it, and he doesn't reclaim his TML because the things do remain useful, then neither of you gains any military advantage in terms of ground forces. If he doesn't fire any missiles and he does reclaim the TML, then how does he overwhelm you with six tanks? How are you not able to make up the difference? Especially if he apparently didn't build any TMDs of his own?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the key to winning a game is to scout and be aggressive. You can't consistently rely on blind defensive maneuvers to check your opponents. If they have so many TMLs that you can't stop them, then you weren't scouting. Those structures are stationary, and unlike an experimental you may miss if you blink during a scouting run, those structures show up on your map. Scout, attack, scout, attack!

Statistics: Posted by Flamingo — 10 Feb 2015, 19:19

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-09T01:49:58+02:00

I don't think it's fair to take into account that you are forcing multiple people to react to you, this is a problem caused by the nature of teamgames (the fact that there are multiple opponents) rather than the TML itself, agile or long range threats will always be better in teamgames. Also a lot of people here act like if there wasn't a cybran tml no one would build tmd at all. You can make an extra tml launcher (and like Vee pointed out, reclaim it later) for the exact same effect with other factions. It may be more expensive, but it's still not going to be more expensive than forcing everyone to make extra TMD and shields. Cybran just do it better, but it's a problem that is never going away. As for the awesomeness of cybran shields, sure the 4k hp ed1 one is nice, and blink is cool. But the further up you go the more ass it becomes (For comparison, ED5 is a total of 4.8k mass for 15k hp I believe)

Statistics: Posted by Ceneraii — 09 Feb 2015, 01:49

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-09T01:08:23+02:00

VoiceofReason wrote:
Until this happens, I'm walking away from this thread; There is nothing more to be said without specific examples and replays.

"When something is blatantly OP people begin to abuse it everywhere in every way they can - The more it's seen, the more players will start to use it also. If this just hasn't happened "yet," then I strongly encourage everyone to start raping their opponents every game with Cybran TML launchers to prove they need to be changed, and bring your results back here every time."

I used to do this, then I grew bored of it, did the same with stratrush too and grew tired of it too, oh and before that I also used to abuse Sera ACU TML. Funnily enough none of it got fixed. I posted replays (10 or so about TML) too at some point, cba to find them anymore though.

Vee is saying all the right things.

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 09 Feb 2015, 01:08

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-09T00:57:16+02:00

the matter with this discution, is that it include several factor...

1st : is that like V said, when someone does a special unit (nuke, tml, first bomber), everyone in the opposit team need to react by building SMD, tmd, mAA
So that's a valid argument against the cybran tml

2nd : Com is right, you need to take into account the cost of the tml, and not only the missile. Even if you don't build the tml to kill the tmd... So you can't neither take the whole 850 + 180 into account.That's little tricky there.

If we remove 1 baby missile, only 1 will hit. letting opponent tmd with 50 to 100 health. that can be finish by another tml or a bomber.
That's what i feel like the good way to be. But i'm not so sure. 1 shot tmd is great feature i feel like too.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 09 Feb 2015, 00:57

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-08T22:28:56+02:00

This thread is about split missiles, so of course we are talking about cybran tml and we are not talking about aeon tmd

You think 3 TMD is enough to counter a TML? Hah! I see that cybran logo, you trying to trick us brackman? If that was the case there would indeed be no issue. On a map like wonder 4v4 those 3.2187 TMD gives you 1 TMD per front base. In fact you need 2 TMD *per mex group*, of which on wonder you have like 10, so that's 20 TMDs to counter 1 TML. Then the cybran just builds an additional TML, thus forcing the enemy to build a shield over all the TMDs, or he reclaims the TML for 81% mass back.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 08 Feb 2015, 22:28

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-08T22:28:08+02:00

Until this happens, I'm walking away from this thread; There is nothing more to be said without specific examples and replays.

"When something is blatantly OP people begin to abuse it everywhere in every way they can - The more it's seen, the more players will start to use it also. If this just hasn't happened "yet," then I strongly encourage everyone to start raping their opponents every game with Cybran TML launchers to prove they need to be changed, and bring your results back here every time."

Statistics: Posted by VoiceofReason — 08 Feb 2015, 22:28

Re: Cybran split missile

2015-02-08T22:23:21+02:00

Number one, the TML costs 850mass, plus the missile cost you keep quoting of 180.

For the cost, you can make 3.2187 TMDs. Mass for Mass it is entirely counter-able.
Next incorrect statement - the best way to snipe a TMD is not a TML. The best way to snipe Sera, UEF, and Cybran TMD is Cybran TML, if the opponent has not invested into the appropriate counter in time. If you are always only reacting to a players attack after its begun, the problems aren't the unit.

Statistics: Posted by VoiceofReason — 08 Feb 2015, 22:23