Forged Alliance Forever

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T16:21:12+02:00

It's already the case. You just don't see visually the expanding range.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 20 Mar 2012, 16:21

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T16:19:09+02:00

I had a thought on this which could increase the number of successful searches; it is obviously up to the coders to decide if it warrants coding effort.

When a player starts the auto-match search I assume the algorithm searches for another player within a certain margin (for this example let say it is +/-200) of the searching players true rating (mean); if no suitable player is found, say after 5 seconds the margin is increased by +/- 100 every 5 seconds. A status update of the search margin will be shown, this will keep the searching player informed that the potential match quality is being reduced to increase the chances of finding a game; the player can therefore cancel the search if he feels the potential match would not be worth playing.

The displayed margin should change a second or so before the search algorithm uses the updated margin, this allows the player to cancel a potential match at the next margin step before it is found.

A maximum margin can be set to prevent a totally imbalanced game.

The expanding search margin algorithm could be enabled/disabled through the FAF lobby options menu pull-down.

The TrueSkill algorithm on its own prevents player’s ratings being adversely affected if someone was to comment that a wider margin search would damage their rating if they were matched with a pro, they would also have the option to disable the expanding margin search via an option as mentioned above.

Also is it worth implementing a counter in the auto-match pane that shows how many players are actively searching for a game?

Discuss

Statistics: Posted by X-Peri-MENTAL — 20 Mar 2012, 16:19

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T13:31:21+02:00

it is a "1v1 even game matchmaker" witch creates a "1v1 skill ladder".

Statistics: Posted by Batmansrueckkehr — 20 Mar 2012, 13:31

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T13:23:32+02:00

To be honest, I should rename "1v1 ladder" to "1v1 matchmaker", it's not really a ladder in the sense you are used too.
It indirectly can rank people, but the main purpose is to match people efficiently.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 20 Mar 2012, 13:23

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T13:21:49+02:00

thygrrr wrote:
But it's exactly what we WANT in challenges, enabling people to have high quality games in a formal environment.

...

Playing people at exactly your skill rating and winning 50:50 against them (otherwise, your rating will change) is exactly what we want. Those would be 100% quality games, i.e. very desirable matches.

100% support for this view about ladder idea. I dislike idea of "force everybody to play everyone else in ladder so we get accurate rankings." - type of rankfacism. It makes tons of bad games which are not enjoyable to play nor watch. Having tight, even games is what most ppl want to play and watch. So if ladder helps to motivate such games being played, its serving the game and players.

To (miss)quote Bible here "Ladders are made for players, players are not made for ladders"

Statistics: Posted by Tiptushi — 20 Mar 2012, 13:21

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T12:53:20+02:00

luckyNot wrote:
What your thoughts and experiences??

I started playing FAF ladder actively few weeks ago. I have got enough games to play in it.

It usually takes few minutes to get game, one thing that helps alot is letting others know youre searching, so post in mainchat smthing like "searching ranked" when u start searching, it usually helps.

European afternoons seem to be most active time in my experience, then it usually launches about same moment u click search.

Statistics: Posted by Tiptushi — 20 Mar 2012, 12:53

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T12:14:06+02:00

But it's exactly what we WANT in challenges, enabling people to have high quality games in a formal environment.

Ideally, automatch would only match you with people exactly your skill (of course it can't because there aren't enough of us out there). There's the added benefit of finding new opponents, or taking shots at tougher ones.

TrueSkill is NOT "points" you want to accumulate, it's an assessment of your skill.

Playing people at exactly your skill rating and winning 50:50 against them (otherwise, your rating will change) is exactly what we want. Those would be 100% quality games, i.e. very desirable matches.

You don't "risk" anything against lower rated players, you rather "correct" your rating if you lose because it was obviously too high. You don't "lose points to your opponent". This is not premier league football. We'll have cup tourneys for that later.

I think we have a very profound psychological barrier here that people need to overcome. Ratings are not a high score (neither TrueSkill, nor Elo!). The difference is that Elo system can be gamed to become a high score due to its inflation problem, and that's what happened on GPGnet. People would try to get as many wins in a row as possible, farming the k-factor with every game no matter how weak their opponent was. In fact, the weaker, the better.

In TrueSkill, this behavior has diminishing returns. If you only ever challenge your little brother and beat him soundly in every match, your rating will stagnate (and I think your deviation will remain high, i.e. the system will know you only every play that one guy and if he's got a high uncertainty as well, prepare for a suprise when you face opponents outside of your little monkey sphere you've been playing in).

So even if TrueSkill assesses your mean rating as 1500, with a high deviation (uncertainty) of+/- 500 means your rating is anything from 1000 (bloody noob) to 2000 (really good)). It'll try to match you against people in the center of that range so it can take away from the uncertainty, to find out where in that range you really belong.

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 20 Mar 2012, 12:14

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T11:59:03+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
If he doesn't want too, he can deny the challenge.

I don't know why people want it as ladder game instead of custom. I guess because of the random map and leaderboard.

What i mean is he can just play people around his rank now, he doesn't have to bother risking his rating on a lower rated player, thats not right.

Statistics: Posted by SpinDrah — 20 Mar 2012, 11:59

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T11:52:32+02:00

If he doesn't want too, he can deny the challenge.

I don't know why people want it as ladder game instead of custom. I guess because of the random map and leaderboard.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 20 Mar 2012, 11:52

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T11:50:50+02:00

its not even about that, when you could see who you where going to fight people would dodge, thats not how ranked should work! when you click ranked you should have to play whoever it gives you, not just the people you want to play that is what custom is for.

I really don't even understand the Idea behind picking your opp in ranked, If you want to play a certain person why cant you just Play a custom 1v1?

A top 10 should never have to risk his points vs a lower rated player?

Statistics: Posted by SpinDrah — 20 Mar 2012, 11:50

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T11:31:32+02:00

I don't think a limitation is even necessary, because TrueSkill shouldn't suffer from inflation due to repeated games like Elo ratings would. (k factor)

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 20 Mar 2012, 11:31

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T09:23:57+02:00

Unlike Elo, you wouldn't be able to increase your rank a lot that way (at least not much more than your real rank).

We will try to code a limitation per day.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 20 Mar 2012, 09:23

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T04:32:22+02:00

thygrrr wrote:
A challenge system will come in 0.7 It'll allow people to play ladder1v1 against anyone they wish (only with consent, of course)

I hope its every other game only? 1v1 should have at least some random to it, you should not be able to pick who you play every game, that is what Custom is for.

Statistics: Posted by SpinDrah — 20 Mar 2012, 04:32

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T02:16:59+02:00

A challenge system will come in 0.7 It'll allow people to play ladder1v1 against anyone they wish (only with consent, of course)

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 20 Mar 2012, 02:16

Re: 1v1 ranked system workable on a community of this size?

2012-03-20T00:49:06+02:00

SpinDrah - I know my rating has nothing to do with my opinion and it is a side point to the subject of the post in any case. I agree with your points about which games to join too. Which is why I posted this thread i.e. limiting gaming options on a small community is not without implications.

Ze_Pilot - perhaps I was just Not Lucky tonight with regards to games available. Although I would be interested to hear from other members of community regarding their experiences and that is part of the reason for this post

I guess you answered my question in that the FAF direction is for less opportunity to play, but with better quality games. The challenge, from a learning perspective, is that with 16 1v1 maps it is hard to apply some learnings from the last game . This combined with fewer opportunities for games makes learning a slower process IMO (As a thought do you have any stats around peak times/days and concurrent player volumes?).

Statistics: Posted by luckyNot — 20 Mar 2012, 00:49