Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-27T13:14:35+02:00

Typo91 wrote:
i know the megalith for example has a faster speed in the water, so some changes are possible for a unit IN vs OUT of water.... but i am not sure if damage per weapon is possible.

One though does come to mind... is it possible to increase HP of the ACU only based on its depth from where it spawned? So the deeper it goes, the more HP it gets? and as it rises up back to spawn depth, it goes back to normal HP...

I wonder if that is possible?

The following is 100% possible.

-setting damage based on where / what a projectile impacts (layer, mesh location, object type ect)

However what is taking place isn't a direct impact but rather area effect damage. This damage does not take into account the fact that a unit is behind a shield or under the water. While it's possible to script a new area damage function to check for such things. Odds are that this would be slow in comparison to the internal version currently in use by the engine.

It's for this reason that no one has properly addressed the issue before now. Thankfully Sheeo is working on modding the engine to correct such issues.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 27 Dec 2014, 13:14

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-27T11:33:03+02:00

i know the megalith for example has a faster speed in the water, so some changes are possible for a unit IN vs OUT of water.... but i am not sure if damage per weapon is possible.

One though does come to mind... is it possible to increase HP of the ACU only based on its depth from where it spawned? So the deeper it goes, the more HP it gets? and as it rises up back to spawn depth, it goes back to normal HP...

I wonder if that is possible?

Statistics: Posted by Typo91 — 27 Dec 2014, 11:33

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T23:20:12+02:00

The simplest rule would be :

If the unit is fully submerged, it takes full damage only from torpedoes, depth charges, and nukes.

All other sources of damage are reduced by 50-80%.

Depending on how the actual unit code is structured, implementing the rule might be easy or hard.

Statistics: Posted by BrickedKeyboard — 24 Dec 2014, 23:20

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T14:38:16+02:00

The t4 Bomber and Czar issue is fixed but simply reducing the crash damage from 10,000 to about 3,500. also the same devastating effect from the crash can still be achieved by secondary explosions, spaced away or something from the same point if someone wanted to mod it, which i know is possible because that explosion mod does it already.

A lot of the problems can be fixed by moding the depth of submerged units, which i've seen in another mod.

I know we've seen on mythbusters that projectiles loose a lot of force when slaming into water...

But water does carry the force of explosions well, one of the reasons torpedoes are so dangerous is because the explosions wreck into the ship because that is the only direction it can travel in a lot of the time against the water.

Also depth charges, fully under water the dangerous effects even being near are not good.

All i am saying is some AoE damage from explosions from a shell hitting the water and exploding makes sense. (maybe the shells have a delay after impact) or some kind of alien compression wave of energy magic like the tempest shot. Even the Czar beam makes sense, because whose to say its not Extremely powerful? vaporizing 30 meters of water down as it cuts into the ocean? it looks like it can to me... we just are missing the cool graphics of that effect.

Its the Physical damage of a large massive object hitting the surface of water hundreds of feet above that doesn't really ring true with me more then anything.

--edit...

I just thought of one CRAZY idea to probably solve all these woes, but every single person that reads this idea is going to agree that is completely crazy....

ACU HP increases 250 hp every 15 seconds after the first 20min in game.
example: 50min into a game, a t3 aeon ACU would have 47,000 hp, discouraging a snipe while still not ruling it out.

Statistics: Posted by Typo91 — 24 Dec 2014, 14:38

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T12:34:06+02:00

Oh yeah its the missile ships.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 24 Dec 2014, 12:34

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T12:32:28+02:00

Indeed. I was wrong on that. Not sure why I kept this value in mind.

Is it the missile ship with 200 range ?

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 24 Dec 2014, 12:32

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T11:48:32+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
2 ) if we talk about range, tehcnically, BS can't kill tempest because of the range big difference. 150 v(uef BS) vs 200 (tempest).

The tempest and the Summit have the same range of 150.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 24 Dec 2014, 11:48

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T11:32:19+02:00

E8400-CV wrote:
Disagree on that T4 bomber though. Mass equivalent in asf murders it fairly easily.

Except that it can be built pretty fast, and it's unrealistic to expect players to scout the whole map each min to check for this threat.

Unscouted, once in the air, it often does hurts you so bad it can turn the tide aside.

Balance is not just simplistically compare mass for mass, but you have to take the gameplay into account. I am aware that it's not very often the case though.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 24 Dec 2014, 11:32

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T12:35:02+02:00

BrickedKeyboard wrote:
As a result of this bug, the Atlantis is worthless as a submarine against a competent player because it can be easily killed by battleship shots. It is far too large and slow to dodge, and does not have enough hitpoints or DPS compared to a battleship shooting it.

I wouldn't say useless as it can be a nice BACKUP support against t3 subs, and also because atlantis can be built very fast with t3 ACU when BS can't. In some situations (talking about actual games there) this can be a life saver.

But yeah Atlantis vs BS, not a good matchup. But the problem is not the Atlantis. The problem is the t3 navy is too cheap. This is what should be changed.

The Tempest is similarly hugely vulnerable : any good player will kill the tempest if it submerges.

1) lol , against BS, better you DONT submerge ur tempest and use its superior range , especially that BS, being so large, can hardly dodge the tempest main canon shot.

2 ) if we talk about range, tehcnically, BS can't kill tempest because of the range big difference. 150 v(uef BS) vs 200 (tempest).
I had wrong stat in mind.my bad.

3 ) you're supposed to play SMART and not make tempest alone or even with few units. It's a SUPPORT unit.

If your acu is underwater, pretty much no matter how deep, and he does not have more than 20,000 effective hitpoints, he is vulnerable to an instant-kill by any seraphim player. Seraphim player just drops a bomb from the T4 bomber and self destructs it at the right instant. Takes a little practice, but it is possible to do extremely consistently since the air crash and the bomb have huge area of effects. The T4 bomber flies so quickly and has so many HP that it is almost impossible to intercept no matter how many ASF you have.

That is true , IF the awhassa was unscouted. This t4 should be much more expensive, E wise. It's a T4.5 unit, almost game ender.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 24 Dec 2014, 11:28

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T10:48:02+02:00

Disagree on that T4 bomber though. Mass equivalent in asf murders it fairly easily.

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 24 Dec 2014, 10:48

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T10:14:38+02:00

BrickedKeyboard wrote:
The czar crash is just an example of an area of effect weapon (the crash effect) applying through water. As anyone who has watched Mythbusters knows, water has a drastic effect on reducing the power of projectiles of all sorts.

So if you want to fix this, you need to fix :

1. Battleships damaging underwater subs and units
2. Strat bombers damaging underwater units like commanders
3. T4 bombers damaging anything underwater with maximum damage, pretty much no matter how deep they are
4. Tac missiles killing underwater ACUs
5. Czar beam affecting underwater units
6. Torpedo ambushers (harms) easily killed by battleships and fatboys

And many many more interactions

As a result of this bug, the Atlantis is worthless as a submarine against a competent player because it can be easily killed by battleship shots. It is far too large and slow to dodge, and does not have enough hitpoints or DPS compared to a battleship shooting it. The Tempest is similarly hugely vulnerable : any good player will kill the tempest if it submerges.

If your acu is underwater, pretty much no matter how deep, and he does not have more than 20,000 effective hitpoints, he is vulnerable to an instant-kill by any seraphim player. Seraphim player just drops a bomb from the T4 bomber and self destructs it at the right instant. Takes a little practice, but it is possible to do extremely consistently since the air crash and the bomb have huge area of effects. The T4 bomber flies so quickly and has so many HP that it is almost impossible to intercept no matter how many ASF you have.

So if you want to nerf the czar, don't settle for merely taking away one of Aeon's better weapons. Fix all of the interactions or it isn't fair.

Agreed

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 24 Dec 2014, 10:14

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-24T10:05:39+02:00

The czar crash is just an example of an area of effect weapon (the crash effect) applying through water. As anyone who has watched Mythbusters knows, water has a drastic effect on reducing the power of projectiles of all sorts.

So if you want to fix this, you need to fix :

1. Battleships damaging underwater subs and units
2. Strat bombers damaging underwater units like commanders
3. T4 bombers damaging anything underwater with maximum damage, pretty much no matter how deep they are
4. Tac missiles killing underwater ACUs
5. Czar beam affecting underwater units
6. Torpedo ambushers (harms) easily killed by battleships and fatboys

And many many more interactions

As a result of this bug, the Atlantis is worthless as a submarine against a competent player because it can be easily killed by battleship shots. It is far too large and slow to dodge, and does not have enough hitpoints or DPS compared to a battleship shooting it. The Tempest is similarly hugely vulnerable : any good player will kill the tempest if it submerges.

If your acu is underwater, pretty much no matter how deep, and he does not have more than 20,000 effective hitpoints, he is vulnerable to an instant-kill by any seraphim player. Seraphim player just drops a bomb from the T4 bomber and self destructs it at the right instant. Takes a little practice, but it is possible to do extremely consistently since the air crash and the bomb have huge area of effects. The T4 bomber flies so quickly and has so many HP that it is almost impossible to intercept no matter how many ASF you have.

So if you want to nerf the czar, don't settle for merely taking away one of Aeon's better weapons. Fix all of the interactions or it isn't fair.

Statistics: Posted by BrickedKeyboard — 24 Dec 2014, 10:05

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-23T06:03:04+02:00

I think the first question to see if this is possible is, does FA do depth calculation?

If not, too bad.

If so, then this seems possible.

So... find someone who has been through the code and bug them about it.

Statistics: Posted by codepants — 23 Dec 2014, 06:03

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-22T14:12:08+02:00

Yeah, some of the death weapon damage should probably be distributed after it hits seabottom and then probably a modified value to take into account the slower velocity compared to air -> ground.

Actually I've been working some on "death damage" for experimentals to make it synced with the animation (for example: damage the ground where colossus lands it knees / torso) and make it gradient, i.e. less damage on the outer radius of damage zone. At the moment you get full damage within the set radius and no damage just outside it, which feels kinda random.

Statistics: Posted by Crotalus — 22 Dec 2014, 14:12

Re: Czar crashing on the surface of the ocean.....

2014-12-22T13:55:56+02:00

guys sure, i know.... i die to it plenty of times, i just got to thinking about it is all.

i mean if a battleship sinks on your head, it doesn't do damage.

also realistically the incredible ACU this massive 20meter + tall machine designed to handle underwater/space/and close proximity to nuclear bombs no problem.

If a Large massive object drops from the sky, (at best only reaching terminal velocity on a world with an ocean (liquid water) which implies an atmosphere and air displacement in the process) such an object could not impart the same force it does to the ground with a significant body of water in the way.

Many times the depth of the water is several times the height of the ACU, so this implies often over a 100 meters of water.

doesn't anyone see what i am getting at?

TL:DR
If it smacks the ground for 10,000 damage in the open air... why does something a 100 meters under water, get smacked just as hard on the moment of water surface impact? Water doesn't transfer force like that.

Statistics: Posted by Typo91 — 22 Dec 2014, 13:55