Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-16T05:07:48+02:00

Of course there is ways to do so.

You may get "unknown UI mods" for a few people though

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 16 Apr 2015, 05:07

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-15T21:46:27+02:00

rxnnxs wrote:
as was said before - it would be nice then to see what mod others do have.

how would we accomplish this.

I support it but I think therin is a real big technical difficulty.

I think the other player's FA can't be aware of what UI mods your FA is running.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 15 Apr 2015, 21:46

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-15T18:10:14+02:00

as was said before - it would be nice then to see what mod others do have.
so it is possible to decide what mod your opponent/allies have and use.
maybe even in the rating system it should be shown.
this way winnign games whithout any mod would be harder and elite than to use this andn that mod..
it would look like an X-Game as "unmodified" or to those what do not know what i talk about:
playing the game "as is" (kind of, except all those FAF additions included) or with some "help" from mods.

so what do you say?
and "unmodified" star for those that do not use any mod and for others a list what they have used and how often.. together with what maps they played and how often

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 15 Apr 2015, 18:10

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-15T13:34:03+02:00

ok i think i should post here after some time :/

i think that its irrelevant what ui mods are allowed, as long as everyone can use the same ones. They may choose not to, but thats also irrelevant.
regardless of what mods are used - this game will always be about skill. UI mods change what game you are playing, not how easy it is (because skill is relative anyway)
btw - this is the advantage of UI mods - they make the learning curve of this game nicer.

what matters is: we need to decide what should be part of the game and what should not be.

IF you think that automanaging eco is an essential part of the game. then you should ban eco manager mods and such.

what you think is tiresome micro can be removed - like clicking on unit icons every time you want to buy something when you can use keys (hotbuild)

we need to keep the game as fun as possible. 1st bomber is a part of this game and should stay - we need to fix the bomber mod problem, not mangle the game around ui mods.

its not about - UI mods should be UI only or UI mods should require user input. Because ALL ui mods give an advantage one way or another (or they wouldnt be made).

its about what impact they have on the game and if thats an appropriate direction to take it in - this is why it makes no sense to me to draw this black and white line saying: only user input ui mods allowed: it just means you can: use ecomanager as long as you spam this key to do it.
(washy suggested to me this radar jammer mod is allowed only if i use a key to do it)

same effect - much more annoyance, or even better - use a macro to have exactly the same effect.

my case in point is: UI mass fab manager - it basically does tiresome micro for you - automatically - making that use a key is just pointless imo, but it will still give you an advantage.

as such - its better to review them case by case and not some blanket ban based on peoples opinions.

If you want my opinion: bomber mod = too much ; ecomanager = bit much (but it doesnt give THAT huge an advantage); massfabmanager = acceptable

TLDR:
Since we are concerned about the game - we should look at what mods to to the gameplay, and not how they do it.

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 15 Apr 2015, 13:34

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-15T13:11:36+02:00

remove those idiots mods, and let only skill matter.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 15 Apr 2015, 13:11

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-15T13:07:19+02:00

Didn't think you were! But someone will - it's only a matter of time.

Statistics: Posted by nakeddave — 15 Apr 2015, 13:07

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-14T15:56:52+02:00

nakeddave wrote:
For example- hoverbombing. Now there's a mod to do it optimally, the full balance implications can be seen. The unit needs to be fixed or rebalanced to avoid this being optimal, or we need to accept that t1 bombergunships are now a key part of the game.

to clarify, i'm not going to make this mod public, it was meant to ridicule massfab- and ecomanager. so unless someone makes something similar, there should be no problem with that for now.

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 14 Apr 2015, 15:56

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-14T13:39:22+02:00

The lesson from these mods, both those in common use (like ecomod) and the proof of concept stuff posted in this thread, is that they demonstrate edge cases in the game which are vulnerable to abuse. It barely matters whether you approve of their use or not, because they're client side so nobody can stop it happening anyway.

Given that there is no way to take these out of circulation, the game has to adapt, it's only a matter of time. Mods provide an undeniable competitive edge, so they will be used. If you can't stop someone from modding, then you might as well incorporate them into the game and rebalance the game around the result.

For example- hoverbombing. Now there's a mod to do it optimally, the full balance implications can be seen. The unit needs to be fixed or rebalanced to avoid this being optimal, or we need to accept that t1 bombergunships are now a key part of the game.

I dislike hoverbombing because it's absurd to watch, but that honestly doesn't matter. There really aren't other options, regardless of any personal philosophy about what's 'ok' or not.

Statistics: Posted by nakeddave — 14 Apr 2015, 13:39

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-14T11:20:15+02:00

@ -_V_- and tatsu

Please calm down or i have to intervene.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 14 Apr 2015, 11:20

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-14T11:06:15+02:00

tatsu wrote:
-_V_- wrote:Relax.
Your skill level is way too low to take the full scale on how good those mods *can* be, if you know how to use them well.

And when it comes to E sharing, it's tons better than any human can do yes. Unless you can tell me you can focus on a game while pressing 30 zillions times on an possible E sharing shortcut.
If you tell me u can, fair enough, cast it pls

you know what f*** it. I get it you hate me. where's the freaking block function I don't need to see your slurs anymore.

Hum no , no personal hate. I hate you pushing so hard on those mods though. That's a big difference.

I'm merely saying (and others did too) that considering your low skills you don't seem to understand the full scale on how big of a deal those mods can be.
Note that they can also kill some beginner who use the mods badly.

Then I gave you a simple example which you clearly can't counter. That's all. Still no hate.

No one claims that a mod can play a game from A to Z for you, but some are a *big* help as in it *CAN* equate to a shit load of automatic key pressings for you without costing you any APM, which is rather BS. And this , to me (and many others), is very wrong.

Since there's some mod to automate the hover, why wouldn't people be people to do a auto dodge mod or something. Still good ?

P.S. : Relax still

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 14 Apr 2015, 11:06

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-14T11:08:02+02:00

"Examples of the two:

Giving you an easy button or key combination that turns off all mass fabs. UI changes only, is ok.
Turning off all mass fabs automatically when you are losing power. Playing the game for you. Not ok."

This was an example given much earlier.

In my opinion both of these are ! NOT OKAY !

Both of those examples can be done using macros. As far as I'm concerned use of macros is a bannable offence in any online game when playing professionally, and when playing casually deemed as cheating.

You are effectively ascertaining an advantage over your opponent through reducing focus time required. While if you were to make it an overall change to the game to both players it'd be a balance change as it affects gameplay and therefore deep discussion would need to be made on each and every mod implemented.

Also

"2 - If the base game should just work that way anyway. These cases should almost always be patched in if possible. Examples: Ecoshare (The game has an eco sharing function built in, but the way it works just isn't the best it could be), Voice Chat (Ingame voice chat would be a great addition). Most ideas which fall here are Sim mods anyway.

The line in the sand is as black and white as it can be, yet some people insist it's grey. If a UI mod makes a decision for the player, rather than allowing the player to bypass limitations in the existing UI to get their active decision-making to the game as quickly as possible, that UI mod is not OK. Anything that does the former is, by definition, not a UI mod; it's a cheat. End of story."

But you give example of needing to fix UI by allowing to split attack... This would be a macro, and would not be okay.

Unless it was officially enabled as part of the general game as a balance change.

Statistics: Posted by Tremarl — 14 Apr 2015, 11:05

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-14T01:34:02+02:00

offtopic: maybe add a building into a game (cheap building) and if mass fab is attached to it, it will be automaticly controlled by AI, will be like if mass fab manager is enabled for it....
sounds really fun for me
edit: so you will have choice... use a little of resources and use automatic fabs, or just spam regular ones and controll them manually

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 14 Apr 2015, 01:34

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-14T00:40:29+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
It's really very simple. A UI mod is OK if it is doing one of two things:

1 - Allowing a player to get what is in his brain across to his units in the game in a case where it is either impossible to do with the stock UI, or stupidly difficult. Examples: Split attack (The uses cover cases many players can come up with in their head, and could tell a live, intelligent squadron of units through voice, but was prohibitively tough to organize through the existing UI), Hotbuild (Reduce the time between thinking 'I want to do this' and issuing the command), Target Priority Painter (Not yet fully released, this is still an example. If you were using voice to command intelligent beings, saying to them "Shoot this first" is an obvious strategic thing the player can come up with, but which the current UI makes very, very hard)

Save for Hotbuild, these are not UI mods.

IceDreamer wrote:
2 - If the base game should just work that way anyway. These cases should almost always be patched in if possible. Examples: Ecoshare (The game has an eco sharing function built in, but the way it works just isn't the best it could be), Voice Chat (Ingame voice chat would be a great addition). Most ideas which fall here are Sim mods anyway.

The line in the sand is as black and white as it can be, yet some people insist it's grey. If a UI mod makes a decision for the player, rather than allowing the player to bypass limitations in the existing UI to get their active decision-making to the game as quickly as possible, that UI mod is not OK. Anything that does the former is, by definition, not a UI mod; it's a cheat. End of story.

In reality target painter and split attack fall into this second category. Leaving only hotbuild, which has been integrated.

I'm not trying to kill your argument, only pointing out incorrectness. Something that could go in the first category would be Supreme Economy or Washy's notification mod.

Statistics: Posted by Sheeo — 14 Apr 2015, 00:40

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-13T23:13:29+02:00

I'll add that the line either way is not drawn by us but by the logic of code. which I must say is a happy coincidence that it matches with what most of us want anyways.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 13 Apr 2015, 23:13

Re: Economy Mods, Power Throttle

2015-04-13T21:30:24+02:00

It's really very simple. A UI mod is OK if it is doing one of two things:

1 - Allowing a player to get what is in his brain across to his units in the game in a case where it is either impossible to do with the stock UI, or stupidly difficult. Examples: Split attack (The uses cover cases many players can come up with in their head, and could tell a live, intelligent squadron of units through voice, but was prohibitively tough to organize through the existing UI), Hotbuild (Reduce the time between thinking 'I want to do this' and issuing the command), Target Priority Painter (Not yet fully released, this is still an example. If you were using voice to command intelligent beings, saying to them "Shoot this first" is an obvious strategic thing the player can come up with, but which the current UI makes very, very hard)

2 - If the base game should just work that way anyway. These cases should almost always be patched in if possible. Examples: Ecoshare (The game has an eco sharing function built in, but the way it works just isn't the best it could be), Voice Chat (Ingame voice chat would be a great addition). Most ideas which fall here are Sim mods anyway.

The line in the sand is as black and white as it can be, yet some people insist it's grey. If a UI mod makes a decision for the player, rather than allowing the player to bypass limitations in the existing UI to get their active decision-making to the game as quickly as possible, that UI mod is not OK. Anything that does the former is, by definition, not a UI mod; it's a cheat. End of story.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 13 Apr 2015, 21:30