Forged Alliance Forever

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-10T12:43:59+02:00

SC-Account wrote:
*snip*

Thanks, best constructed reply so far.

NewForumAccount wrote:
Aeon still has the best T3 Air and its competitor doesn't even have a T3 Gunship.

T3 gunships in general are not popular, mostly used for quick defense against an incoming experimental.

It's around 3k damage per hit from a strat, or about 600dps if you manage to drop a bomb every 5 seconds. While the Broadsword and the Wailer manage about 230 dps. The Restorer sits at a mere 120 dps. Mass wise you can build almost 2 heavy gunships for the cost of a strat, same for the Restorer - but it has a much higher energy cost.

It's better to just make strats to begin with, because they can strike so much earlier on danger, and because they have uses outside of this defense scenario. The gunships do not have this. They are practically useless against other targets. Let alone on large maps. I haven't seen one single replay of high level players where a large blob of gunships crosses the length of Setons for example. This automatically means that gunships need to be spammed at the last moment in a defense scenario because the chance that you have 20 of them laying around are slim to none. If you do this, the build time combined with the slow speed makes it hard to get a use out of them. Consider that you can get five T2 gunships for the same mass cost, and in the same time needed to build one T3 gunship, plus they move quicker to the front at 12 speed. And they have about 100dps advantage compared to heavy gunships and more than 200 compared to the Restorer (not even factoring in the higher energy cost of the Restorer).

Same for attacking navy, you just make torp bombers if you have the window to do it, because they can strike without much delay. The speed of a unit is very important because as soon as you start making something else than ASF, the other team is closing the distance to regain air control. Utilizing air control means getting there NOW, not in 5 minutes.

I really think speed is the key'to giving the Restorer - gunships in general - a place in the air game on larger maps especially.

Statistics: Posted by Col_Walter_Kurtz — 10 Nov 2014, 12:43

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-08T13:55:56+02:00

It's better if Restorers are underpowered rather than overpowered. Aeon still has the best T3 Air and its competitor doesn't even have a T3 Gunship.
There advantage towards ASF/Broadsword mix is the flexibility of not losing Air after wrongly predicting the amount of needed Air-to-Ground forces to stop a land push.
This this not apply to pro gamers who properly scout and can adjust their ASF/Broadsword mix perfectly towards the expected threats.

Statistics: Posted by NewForumAccount — 08 Nov 2014, 13:55

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-08T11:50:51+02:00

All those people seemingly talking out of there asses what about you show some replay.. the OP is completely right. The balance concept can only be described as terrible.
I was the best restorer rusher in GPGNet when they where OP and won even the most impossible match up with them, yet I have not used them for month, although I am usually considered remotely decent at air - nor have I seen anyone using them effectively once.

They where OP in 3599 for a couple of reasons:
1. they never ever beat ASF mass for mass, but they devastated them energy for energy. You could spam them on 3 t2 pgens, but you could never make a half as good ASF force with the same amount of pgens.

2. T3 air factory was cheaper and it was possible to build it with only few t2 pgens.

3. Restorers where never capable of beating flak mass for mass - not even close. They where however able to avoid flak duo to their decent speed and strike elsewhere.

Restorers where never ever any viable option in lategame as main air force or even to win/keep/dominate air. They where never OP in that stage either. They where never a threat to a decent T2/T3 or T4 land force that had mixed flak into it (as any half decent player did). They where decent vs. cruisers (just like any other T3 gunship was, or even most T2).

Now what they where good at and what made them OP was the following:
1. The ability to rush them duo to low energy cost which made completely impossible to counter them with ASF until you had T3 pgens or RAS (which was too late when the Restorer rush was decent).

2. The ability to micro them and get enormous veterancy. Duo to their high health you could outmicro flak, even beat low amounts of flak without loses. If there was too much anti air you could quickly reposition. Their speed and range also made them invulnerable to interceptors since you could just fly away and enjoy free veterancy if they followed (while low amounts of ASF lost to interceptors). When they lost health you could quickly repair/refuel them and return to battle with full health.

3. They beat any other T3 gunship force duo to their superior speed and range (now they lose).

4. They where the least expensive gunships in addition.

This all together, when used correctly and at the right time, made them OP. They where never an autowinbutton for noobs (except in noob games mb).

Now what changed since then?

1. Rushing them nowadays is impossible on any map where you don't have a "T3 air only spot" duo to the high energy cost of the T3 air factory. On every map where there is an air spot rushing them is entirely useless cause the enemy air spot can easily counter with ASF before they can get anywhere near the enemy base. Furthermore ASF are now nearly as effective energy wise but WAY more effective mass wise making the restorer completely obsolete against air

2. Micro is way less effective duo to less health (also worse veterancy bonus) and less speed.

3. They now GET BEAT by any other T3 gunship force duo to their now inferior speed and their inferior DPS.

4. They are now the most expensive gunships (yeah I know they still cost slightly less mass.. but much more energy).

5. Speed nerf also makes them WAY worse vs. cruisers since they can run away and keep distance for 3 times as long as they used to. Unimportant you think? Well 2 Restorers used to beat one cruiser easily - now they can barely scratch it before dying - 10 Aeon T2 gunships for the same mass and way less energy can destroy a Cruiser with ease (as could torp bombers).

So basically every strength they ever head got reversed into a weakness.. which in turn makes them useless.
Yes sure they can be used against ASF in combination with SAM or Cruisers but every T3 gunship or combination of ASF/T3 gunship for the same mass - is just as effective, if not more effective (speed advantage). Restorers cannot even beat ASF for half their mass, yet they only do half as much damage as other gunships, cost 50% more power and are significantly slower - so instead you could as well get a combination of another T3 gunship and ASF instead and get a force that:
- deals equal DPS vs ground units (although with less overall health, but also less vulnerable to splash)
- contains enough ASF to beat Restorers for the mass of the combined force
- is way more mobile

So even when it comes to their supposed niche a combined force of ASF and another T3 gunship, is more effective.

So what is left of their powers?

- nothing

Don't believe me? Show me one replay where Restorers won the game or even filled a niche another unit could not have filled. One replay where Restorers are used that shows anything else but the incompetence of the player using them.

That said Aeon air is still very powerful duo to their ARAS, RAS sacus, good T3 engies and the Eye Of Rhianna - no other faction has all of those strengths combined.

Coffee nut wrote:
I find that the restorer is quite good for buying time/ effective at defence.

On maps likes Isis, they seem to work quite well against experimental pushes; they delay the land experimental (because they need to build flak to accompany it, which allows you time to rush your own), and players seem to spam sams with restorers, which on a small map is devastating when the other team tries to build asfs to counter.....

Think on small turtle-friendly maps, if there are sams as well they're quite a valid method of defence against both land and air without worrying about unit balance, at least temporarily....

EDIT: also, i've always wondered, if there is a strategic bomber run, and it runs through a cloud of idle restorers. Will more strats be destroyed than if that cloud had been asfs? I'm talking about if neither are microed. In my head it seems like i always have to make the asfs turn a tight circle so that they follow the strats in order to really stop a snipe attempt, whereas this is less the case with restorers....

If enemy has no flak even T1 bombers could do this (3 times as efficient).

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 08 Nov 2014, 11:50

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-07T20:00:51+02:00

I find that the restorer is quite good for buying time/ effective at defence.

On maps likes Isis, they seem to work quite well against experimental pushes; they delay the land experimental (because they need to build flak to accompany it, which allows you time to rush your own), and players seem to spam sams with restorers, which on a small map is devastating when the other team tries to build asfs to counter.....

Think on small turtle-friendly maps, if there are sams as well they're quite a valid method of defence against both land and air without worrying about unit balance, at least temporarily....

EDIT: also, i've always wondered, if there is a strategic bomber run, and it runs through a cloud of idle restorers. Will more strats be destroyed than if that cloud had been asfs? I'm talking about if neither are microed. In my head it seems like i always have to make the asfs turn a tight circle so that they follow the strats in order to really stop a snipe attempt, whereas this is less the case with restorers....

Statistics: Posted by Coffee nut — 07 Nov 2014, 20:00

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-07T19:49:39+02:00

Strange, i always thought the Aeons were the "Do one thing but do it awesomely" kinda race.

A all-purpose unit isn't exactly what i'd expect.

What about:

Aeon T3 Anti Air Platform: Restorer
1.000 HP
9.000 Personal Shield HP (shield regen TBA)
Mass 1.000 (from 1.200) Energy 50.000 (from 64.000)
//Everything else is as is

And to not make it ultra OP...
The shield DOES NOT cover the underside, meaning that air units have to go through 10.000 HP total (of which 9.000 are shield) and Surface-To-Air units only through 1.000

Statistics: Posted by zeroAPM — 07 Nov 2014, 19:49

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-07T19:38:21+02:00

dstojkov wrote:
If you win air fight with restorer this simply means you would have win it anyway with asf period.

Wait, that doesn't actually mean anything ....

And again, if you want asf units, build asf, not gunships.

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 07 Nov 2014, 19:38

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-07T18:25:38+02:00

hahahahaha

Nice thread

Well time change stacked point of view on the other hand ....

in 3599 noobs were crying about how resto were op(even if was not the case) .... then nerf after the nerf of this poor unit even the noob tells this unit is useless ...

But still .. still you can find some people arguing how imba or well still good they are ... The brain f*** is not working anymore .. try another strategy to convaince resto still ok since they sucks hard. If you win air fight with restorer this simply means you would have win it anyway with asf period.

FAF patch maker should really think to a complete redo of the air tier since for YEARS you didn't solve anything in the air tier
accept with humility your fail so that this game can go on new basis

Regards

Statistics: Posted by dstojkov — 07 Nov 2014, 18:25

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-07T13:23:18+02:00

I think a caster (probably TA4life) mentioned the range of the restorer to be useful on some maps for kiting and luring ASF over groundbased AA. (e.g. on Wonder 5v5)

Statistics: Posted by NewForumAccount — 07 Nov 2014, 13:23

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-07T10:24:55+02:00

Look, I don't want to be some advocate for a Restorer buff, not at all. I'm just trying to understand what it's for, and I think more people have that question because you just don't see them a lot.

IceDreamer wrote:
It has no AA role. Get that idea out of your head, squash it into a small ball, then throw it into the ocean of things to never think again.

Well, it's not very strange to assume it has an AA role, because it was rebelanced for less ground DPS and more AA.

-_V_- wrote:
When do you build restorers ? Well when you have no choice but to defend YOUR SIDE, and AFTER you killed the flaks. Strats do wonders of flaks groups,yes yes.
Isn't it the same for the other gunships ?

Well, like stated in the first post on this thread, you're probably better off spamming other stuff.

-_V_- wrote:
Please point to me a replay where the UEF/Cybran t3 gunships were significant (referring to your enquiry). Or just explain to me how a swarm of those gunships would have done better than a restorer swarm, in the air context. Please.

Good point, there are none.

See a pattern maybe?

-_V_- wrote:
It allows you to stop some land spam shit, cybran navy (easily), or whatever without losing too much of air control.

Your only convincing argument in my eyes. But then the evidence is there that no one cares about this unique ability "to not lose too much air control" - else we would see more Restorers on the field. Now it's clear that you're not going to show any replays or come up with factual arguments that can convince me that the Restorer is a useful unit in large teamgames. I do hope that someone with more knowledge of 1v1 comes in and tells me the Restorer is perfect there and is being used. Because then it's fine - 1v1 balance is more important in the end as far as I'm concerned.

Statistics: Posted by Col_Walter_Kurtz — 07 Nov 2014, 10:24

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-07T06:45:01+02:00

I read again your OP.

Are you sure your SAM turret would stop land / navy shit ? Show me.

Are you discovering that there's no I-CAN-DO-EVERYTHING-GREAT unit in this game ? You might be surprised that all of them have weaknesses and are more or less great depending on the context.

But again at the end of the day. Restorers > any other t3 gunships (overall)

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 07 Nov 2014, 06:45

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-07T06:57:10+02:00

_VODKA_ wrote:
[
That's not what I said. Jack of all trades master of none - that's the role it should have. I only implied that it needs more speed to fulfil it's AA role more effectively.

The point that I'm making is that the Restorer doesn't seem useful in any scenario if it fails at AA. The statistical facts are in my post, feel free to attack them. Aside from regular logic dictating that having an anti air unit with low speed is like a Ferrari with bicycle wheels or a jet fighter with a confetti cannon.

Consider that it gets raped by ASF more badly the higher the number of units that are against eachother (1 Restorer works against 3-4 ASF, 50 Restorers get raped by 150-200 ASF like BRINK explains in the video I linked). Building them is a risk and probably a waste of resources. So far I've only gotten replies indicating that the Restorer is dangerous when rushed, or that it can be used as a standalone force for lazy players.

Maybe you should compare whats comparable.
Are the other t3 gunships any help in supporting your asf swarm ? No.
You get some extra support with the restorers which is neat. Yes same investment, it will get raped by ASF , FORTUNATELY!
Those are kinda emergency, I need to save my base , kind of thing. You're NOT supposed to fly all accross the map with the restorers, nor should should you be allowed to.
It allows you to stop some land spam shit, cybran navy (easily), or whatever without losing too much of air control. The other factions do not have that luxury. Realize it ?

Point one such replay then. Since my 'rediscovery' of FA I must have watched over 50 high level Seton's replays - one or two featuring you - and I've hardly seen any Restorers being built. Let alone see them used in some kind of extraordinary support role for ASF. It's a far detched idea. Before the Restorers get to your fight it's long over. The Restorers might happen to be in the proximity of an ASF fight, sure, or a smart player might lure the enemy there. You might as well lure them towards cruisers, SAMS or other ground-to-air. Making Restorers seems like a novelty, redundant even. I'd be surprised if you could point me to any replay where they have any significant role even.

I had played way too many games to be able to point out one in particular. And sorry I can't be arsed to look for one. OK I am not sorry, just an expression.
As I said, if you go for too many restorers vs an equal opponent, yes you cannot go and attack on his side just like that. You cannot have everything. The restorers get raped by ASF if they are attacked directly and if it's properly microed. If the restorers are put away from the core of the asf battle ,while being in range, you'd be surprised how good of a support there are. Then obviously a balance should be found. 90% restos - 10% asf, you'll be raped by pure asf. Do you have the misconception that the broad and the hawler would do better in that context ? Show me please.

When do you build restorers ? Well when you have no choice but to defend YOUR SIDE, and AFTER you killed the flaks. Strats do wonders of flaks groups,yes yes.
Isn't it the same for the other gunships ?

From your comments, you simply don't know how to play, or at least how to use those units. And now you claim a balance problem. This is quite typical actually.
As for the significant role, I did tell you it's the same use as the other gunships, plus you get some AA support that you do not get from the other gunships. Yes they are a BIT slower. So what ? You're using them as defense.

Please point to me a replay where the UEF/Cybran t3 gunships were significant (referring to your enquiry). Or just explain to me how a swarm of those gunships would have done better than a restorer swarm, in the air context. Please.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 07 Nov 2014, 06:31

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-07T00:41:52+02:00

The AA on a Restorer will always hit its target. You cannot micro away from it or dodge it. If you get into firing range it will make a hit and it has a big range (60, same as stationary T3 AA).

Statistics: Posted by The Mak — 07 Nov 2014, 00:41

Re: The Restorer

2014-11-06T23:40:09+02:00

_VODKA_ wrote:
I only implied that it needs more speed to fulfil it's AA role more effectively.

It has no AA role. Get that idea out of your head, squash it into a small ball, then throw it into the ocean of things to never think again.

It was given an AA role in FA release, and in 3599, and just look where that took us. Any Air unit with both an AA role AND any form of meaningful Anti-Ground DPS AND high enough HP to not instadie to AA is automatically going to be OP as all hell. It was.

The AA is there so that it cannot be denied by the first couple of ASFs out of the factory in the way that the other T3 Gunships, or T2 Gunships can be. The AA is there so that it forces a greater percentage of your enemy's economy into Air units to counter it, even if they don't want to. It's there so that, if you have enough ASF to deny their own the ability to build up enough, they have to build Flack, which you can avoid, and wastes their mass.

The AA is NOT there so that you get a unit which can both chase down Air units AND punish ground units efficiently.

EDIT: A crucial point you must consider is that the low anti-ground DPS relative to the other T3 Gunships doesn't actually matter. Who cares how long it takes to kill that defenceless army? It doesn't matter, so long as that army doesn't reach your troops and get to fire. You could half the Restorer's DPS again, and then again, and it would STILL have a decent role, because an army caught off guard with no Flack, controlled by an enemy without SIGNIFICANT fighter squadrons, is a dead army. Doesn't matter if it takes 2 minutes rather than 30 seconds, it's still dead!

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 06 Nov 2014, 23:40

Re:

2014-11-06T22:22:42+02:00

Zoram wrote:
_VODKA_ wrote:I only implied that it needs more speed to fulfil it's AA role more effectively.

I don't understand that point, but maybe it's because I don't understand what the unit is supposed to be :p

For me it's a gunship, an air to ground unit, that's to be used against ground, either ennemy structures or incoming ground attacks, and that also happens, as a bonus, to have air defense effective against small ASF parties. I don't understand it as being intended to be used in massive air battle against swarms of ASF.

The restorer doesn't have the ground damage to be that. Especially considering the other t3 gunships which have way higher air-to-ground dps. The difference is that the restorer is resilient vs ASF (and even kills a couple), so a raiding unit that you can't take out just like that or something that could help get or keep air control. It's also less risk than making a strat bomber (for air control issues).

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 06 Nov 2014, 22:22

The Restorer

2014-11-06T22:17:21+02:00

_VODKA_ wrote:
I only implied that it needs more speed to fulfil it's AA role more effectively.

I don't understand that point, but maybe it's because I don't understand what the unit is supposed to be :p

For me it's a gunship, an air to ground unit, that's to be used against ground, either ennemy structures or incoming ground attacks, and that also happens, as a bonus, to have air defense effective against small ASF parties. I don't understand it as being intended to be used in massive air battle against swarms of ASF.

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 06 Nov 2014, 22:17