Forged Alliance Forever

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T20:29:40+02:00

my two cents on the issue.

As someone said previously, not the fate of the earth at stake here, but hey

As a principle, I strongly disagree with the idea that

1: ANYTHING (And yes, I do mean absolutely anything) which is used by a large-ish number of people, and can be toggled on a per-client basis, should be integrated into the game. There is no logical reason whatsoever to not do that.

That basically means that wathever can be added to a potential list of neverending option, because, you know, it can be toggled of. I see one very obvious problem with that here, as pointed out by Pilot I believe, this can quickly become really confusing. Too many options = none at all. Many people don't want to spend 10 minutes checking out what each option does.
I don't, anyway :p (as for the example of hotbuild./Gazui, I have no idea what these things mean and if I use them, searching the website for explanations right now, something to do with templates I got so far ...)

If the intent is to maintain a sleek game and not a confusing mess of options, I do believe, as some posters, that it is a legitimate debate to have , whether or not an option should be added to the list.

I'm saying that regardless of the particular merits of the mod we're talking about here. It might be a good idea of adding that particular one, but it is not obvious in and of itself.

did not say any UI mods, i said GOOD UI mods that many people already use and are familiar with. UI mods that could not be potentially considered cheating (ecomanager, dodger), or really tiny UI mods (changed camera viewpoint mod) of course do not fall under that category.

good and many are highly subjective terms. If the direction FAF is taking is to stick to the "driven by community" thing, as heavily advertised since the "events", then it is quite reasonable to expect a debate.
I understand it is quite complicated to organise how such a community driven project would work (and I don't even know if it's actually workable), but it's been stated so many times as the end goal that it seems to be reaonable to assume that ideas that have nothing to do with bugfixing be put on hold until clarification of the decision matrix.

Again, I'm not commenting specifically on the merits of the explosion mod, but on the principle, that no, adding extra options to an already long list (especially if it should be on by default) is not something that should be done just because we can.

edits: grammar and typos

Statistics: Posted by Zoram — 31 Oct 2014, 20:29

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T16:33:11+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
RK4000 wrote:And integrating good UI mods that many people use is bad? It's already been done before with GAZ/Hotbuild, so why not more? It's not like extra options are bad if they are proven to work well. If anything, it evens out the field with people that didn't know about the mods before.

You should implemented ALL ui-side mod then. Actually, there is no point in ui-side mods if you are going to implement anything without thinking about it.

I did not say any UI mods, i said GOOD UI mods that many people already use and are familiar with. UI mods that could not be potentially considered cheating (ecomanager, dodger), or really tiny UI mods (changed camera viewpoint mod) of course do not fall under that category.

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 31 Oct 2014, 16:33

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T16:31:23+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
And integrating good UI mods that many people use is bad? It's already been done before with GAZ/Hotbuild, so why not more? It's not like extra options are bad if they are proven to work well. If anything, it evens out the field with people that didn't know about the mods before.

You should implemented ALL ui-side mod then. Actually, there is no point in ui-side mods if you are going to implement anything without thinking about it.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 31 Oct 2014, 16:31

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T16:29:19+02:00

And why would integrating good UI mods that many people use bad? It's already been done before with GAZ/Hotbuild, so why not more? It's not like extra options are bad if they are proven to work well. If anything, it evens out the field with people that didn't know about the mods before.

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 31 Oct 2014, 16:29

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T16:28:09+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can count the number of mods that can be toggled with just 1 option on a clientside basis on the fingers of one hand. Name me a few if there are that many? How many mods can you toggle on a clientside basis?

All of the UI-side mods.

So you are now saying it's the author's responsibility to make it compatible with newer patches, not the people that create the new patches... Earlier you said people that make the patches are responsible for compatibility. Make up your mind please.

Patches must not break any mod or feature mod. Unless the mod author is warned and is able to update his own mod (that's what happened several times with nomads -it even happened the other way around in the case of GAZUI).
In the case of diamond & Blackops, the mod author/community specifically asked for no more update.

I don't see what is contradictory or hard to understand.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 31 Oct 2014, 16:28

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T16:24:14+02:00

Cuddles wrote:
So I don't have to invest in bananas? Everything is good?

Everything is good

Though actually with that fungus thingy going around, investing in bananas might be a good plan if you pull out at the right time :p

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 31 Oct 2014, 16:24

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T16:23:22+02:00

So I don't have to invest in bananas? Everything is good?

Statistics: Posted by Cuddles — 31 Oct 2014, 16:23

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T16:10:21+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
It's one with your mod. Then another one with another mod. If you want to integrate everything without even thinking about it, the option menu will be the game.

I'm pretty sure you can count the number of mods that can be toggled with just 1 option on a clientside basis on the fingers of one hand. Name me a few if there are that many? How many mods can you toggle on a clientside basis?

Cuddles wrote:
IceDreamer wrote:2: Nowhere did RK4000 specifically say that the default would have to be to have the toggle set to 'ON'.

He specifically said it more than once and that is where the argument started yesterday on aeolus already.

I specifically said that I THINK they should default to on, for the reasons stated. As in, my opinion. You apparently seem to think I have the power to say "omg hey visionik look at my fancy mod integrate it and force it to default to on". No. I expressed my opinion that it should default to on for the reasons I gave.

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Nothing was locked, their author could have updated the game.

So you are now saying it's the author's responsibility to make it compatible with newer patches, not the people that create the new patches... Earlier you said people that make the patches are responsible for compatibility. Make up your mind please.

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 31 Oct 2014, 16:10

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T16:07:40+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
2: Nowhere did RK4000 specifically say that the default would have to be to have the toggle set to 'ON'.

He specifically said it more than once and that is where the argument started yesterday on aeolus already.

Statistics: Posted by Cuddles — 31 Oct 2014, 16:07

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T16:03:01+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
1) It's ONE extra option. It will be under graphics settings. I don't see how one extra option for alternative explosions is confusion. It's not like we're introducing a whole new complex feature like engymod.

It's one with your mod. Then another one with another mod. If you want to integrate everything without even thinking about it, the option menu will be the game.

3) You always say compatibility with featured mods must be guaranteed. How come most most mods stopped being patched after the engymod patch? All but 3 or 4 mods stopped being patched then, and don't use .nxt and .nx2 patch files. Guess it's not a big deal at all if those can just be ignored, since they don't use the newer patches anyway.

Mostly for balance reasons (for Diamond & Blackops, but I think it's the only one that are "frozen"). Nothing was locked, their author could have updated the game.
Actually for Diamond, it's was a demand of the mod author himself.
For Blackops, it was mostly the blackops community that demanded it.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 31 Oct 2014, 16:03

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T15:58:58+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
IceDreamer wrote:For the love of god some people just don't listen...

1: ANYTHING (And yes, I do mean absolutely anything) which is used by a large-ish number of people, and can be toggled on a per-client basis, should be integrated into the game. There is no logical reason whatsoever to not do that.

I can think of many reasons : Confusion for players (too many options != good options), download time (not everyone is able to download 100 mb of patches), complexifying the code/patching and interoperability with other (featured)-mods.

1) It's ONE extra option. It will be under graphics settings. I don't see how one extra option for alternative explosions is confusion. It's not like we're introducing a whole new complex feature like engymod.

2) The explosions will add a maximum of 20 MB. Considering the current patch size, that is miniscule.

3) You always say compatibility with featured mods must be guaranteed. How come most most mods stopped being patched after the engymod patch? All but 3 or 4 mods stopped being patched then, and don't use .nxt and .nx2 patch files. Guess it's not a big deal at all if those can just be ignored, since they don't use the newer patches anyway.

4) We are not idiots, contrary to your belief. We know that we must keep the code clean and simple, to guarantee compatibility and simplicity. This is already the case somewhat, or is it just coincidence that the T3 MAA units use the custom explosions by themselves without a patch required for the explosions mod?

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Also, if you go that way, the list is huuuuuuge. Starting with blackops (after all, you could disable them with a lobby restriction).

Talking of visual effect, why RK4000 mod instead of 4DC Explosions or Battlefeel?

1) My toggle is client-side. It's like a UI mod. You can see the new explosions, but if someone doesn't want to, he can turn it off for himself. Being able to toggle it on a per-client basis is not the same as toggling it for everyone in the lobby. And blackops would affect balance for every player, I only affect visuals on a per-client basis.

2) Those mods, afaik, do not have a clientside toggle. 4DC is incompatible with everything if not ran without the base 4DC mod, and Battlefeel is just new textures which you already offered as an optional extra, so it pretty much is integrated.

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 31 Oct 2014, 15:58

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T15:35:51+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
For the love of god some people just don't listen...

1: ANYTHING (And yes, I do mean absolutely anything) which is used by a large-ish number of people, and can be toggled on a per-client basis, should be integrated into the game. There is no logical reason whatsoever to not do that.

I can think of many reasons : Confusion for players (too many options != good options), download time (not everyone is able to download 100 mb of patches), complexifying the code/patching and interoperability with other (featured)-mods.

The inclusion of gazui/hotbuild was done with reducing confusion (you NEED to install these mods, where are they,....) and helping inter-operability (ie. with nomads and Galactic War).

Also, if you go that way, the list is huuuuuuge. Starting with blackops (after all, you could disable them with a lobby restriction).

Talking of visual effect, why RK4000 mod instead of 4DC Explosions or Battlefeel?

IceDreamer wrote:
3: Stop pretending anyone other than visionik has any power whatsoever at this point. Stop comparing us to PilOt, and stop saying how 'This democracy' is shit. The democracy doesn't exist yet, we're still getting our feet back on the ground after the previous leader made active steps to obliterate this community at the mere possibility that some people might succeed in creating another lobby. People here have short memories apparently.

I was let with two choices : Having to deal with people like you, eating my soul day after day and making me physically sick of thinking about FAF (yes, you are THAT toxic), or going in a direction for FAF I don't like. That was a dead-end, and the only viable solution was to pull the plug. The game I loved is dead for me.

I still don't like what you want to do, but at least it's not my concern. Still makes me a little sick. Don't be surprised that some people don't like your way either.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 31 Oct 2014, 15:35

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T15:27:53+02:00

galacticfear wrote:
Honestly from these threads you would think the fate of the earth hangs in the balance, can't everyone just chill out and play setons

fate of FAF = fate of the earth !

Statistics: Posted by Aarhun — 31 Oct 2014, 15:27

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T15:23:06+02:00

Honestly from these threads you would think the fate of the earth hangs in the balance, can't everyone just chill out and play setons

Statistics: Posted by galacticfear — 31 Oct 2014, 15:23

Re: "Updating" the game

2014-10-31T14:31:25+02:00

There is an enormous difference between the author of a mod expressing his desire to have something default to 'ON', and someone in a position of power saying 'This will be done'. You need to learn that and stop arguing until you're blue in the face over absolutely nothing. What a waste of time. I'm done here.

@Dragonfire - Now that's more like what I'm talking about. We need interactive features like that to stop the community continuing to be ignorant sheep whenever something changes. TF2 gives a tip every time a map loads, and it works great there

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 31 Oct 2014, 14:31