Forged Alliance Forever

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-27T21:56:28+02:00

Everyone has their own ideas about what should be done here and there are a lot of suggestions in different directions, and chances are this one will just get lost in the shuffle. However, this is my take that I think is pretty reasonable and maintains a lot of the good stuff of the current system while making it more noob friendly and helping players avoid maps that they hate. Please consider!

1.) If two players match and have less than 15 (or is it 10?) maps in common with each other, it chooses a popular map and ignores their preferences. This number seems far too high to me, as it's relatively rare, especially maybe for new players who only know 20 or so maps total, to have that many in common. Why not allow players who have 3 maps in common with each other to play a map they have in common? There is some potential for gaming the system or whatever, but it's really quite small. The benefit is people are much more likely to get a map they have some experience with and less likely to get a random map that they haven't seen.

2.) New players could default to having the "default" map list selected. This way, new players might be less overwhelmed, they're more likely to get matched against other new players, and they could focus on a smaller group of maps. It has the benefits of the "new player" pool restrictions that were mentioned a few times. But, it also has the benefit of allowing new players to play other maps if they so choose (maybe they are returning vets or whatever).

3.) We could allow a subtle map veto system, like in other online games. You match with a player and see 3 of the maps you have in common. Each player vetoes one map and you play the third. This way, everyone can avoid the maps they really hate.

I really think this would alleviate the "noob unfriendly" nature of ladder and allow people to avoid the maps they hate. At the same time, it would maintain the flexibility we have. Thoughts?

Statistics: Posted by sasin — 27 Oct 2014, 21:56

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-27T21:55:55+02:00

Statistics: Posted by sasin — 27 Oct 2014, 21:55

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-27T21:10:21+02:00

that what i see when i look for O2200 ladder games
3 pages of search here

Spoiler: show

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 27 Oct 2014, 21:10

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-13T11:36:10+02:00

Last Friday I created this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8671

to try and capture keys statements from this thread and raise the question of whether a solution that works for all is perhaps 2 1v1 leagues - one based on a dynamic map pool, the other on a smaller static rotating map pool, players can play either. This may provide a simple and accessible solution

Statistics: Posted by luckyNot — 13 Oct 2014, 11:36

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-10T01:21:31+02:00

Just a thought, how about we add loads more chat avatars for ladder, like a pretty gold star for playing a certain amount of ladder games a week ?

Statistics: Posted by ZaZen — 10 Oct 2014, 01:21

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-09T08:34:34+02:00

The ladder is dead for the top 50, the higher you get the deader it gets. The actual top 4 of Zock, Blackheart, Petric and Luxy have played a total of one game in the last two or more months (unless some have become active on ladder since I last logged in). I think Joes and noobs will search no matter what so if some of the map changes help the pros then that's pretty good, particularly as it probably won't be a massive difference between the interests of Pros noobs and joes.

Personally, of the ideas put forward, I think we could use a culling of clearly imba maps, addition of goodlands, Icelands, Stella Maris and other nice custom maps that I can't think of or that mapping bros make for us and an effective veto - personally I'd like as many vetoes as you make selections, so half the pool if you want.

I think the 2-3 live threads on this are never going to get any kind of consensus though. Unless the changes are fairly minor and there is really great engagement about them before the change this will end in rage I'm sure seeing as there's clearly going to be something done given visionik's other thread. Best case scenario is that he listens to the right people and waves his community management wand to magically reduce the ragenado to a mere F5.

Statistics: Posted by Sir Prize — 09 Oct 2014, 08:34

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-09T07:57:25+02:00

Ok I've heard a player here and there say ladder is dead since I joined faf. What amount of games need to be ladder games before you consider that ladder is not dead? Last 24 hours for instance little less than 1/5th games played were ladder matches. Last 30 days about 1/6th games played were ladder matches.

Statistics: Posted by Reaper Zwei — 09 Oct 2014, 07:57

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-09T07:17:42+02:00

Duration of games is important. Please don't let slip in large maps.
I don't think 20x20 maps have any place in 1v1 ladder and many 10x10 wouldn't have any place too.

I don't know about you, but my last 2 ladder games were over 1 hr in duration. To me this is ruining my gameplay experience.
I would expect about 3 games in this same time.

In the old days there used to be a 2v2 ladder. I think that these maps do have a place in such games. No one would like very much a large team game to end soon , so...

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 09 Oct 2014, 07:17

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-09T01:57:32+02:00

congrats to SneakySnake and Zock for the posts, they were pushing forward things.

Now some Kings of the thrones here want something that suits their gamestyle, dear kings, let me remind you that is new people that we need, simple as that.
Saying so, it is clear to me that word progression is the missing word.

So, I arrive here, and I get a 1500player, I get demolished and leave cause game is too hard..
To avoid that I suggest a progressive ladder map pool:
if you are new, you get 10maps, all those with tutorials, you play those vs lower rated players.
after the learning system gets an value of your rating, you get access to large map pool, 20 maps.
and so on, so what do you think?

the NOT THIS MAP vote, is required, I think each player could choose 1,2,3(4,5, depends on total number of maps on his pool) maps that he does not want to play.
In practice, a higher ranked player with the maximum size map pool, would be able to deny like 5maps of 100 maps.
Edit: spell checking

Statistics: Posted by josephbridges — 09 Oct 2014, 01:57

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-08T23:22:55+02:00

If I was in charge of the map pool here is what it would be, OR LESS.
badlands, blasted rock, canis river, cobalt valley, crimson feud, desert planet, dry canyon, eye of the storm, Forbidden Pass, Four Leaf clover, Loki, Open Palms, Regor 6, Roanoke Abyss, Sera Glaciers, Syrtis Major, Craftius Maximus, Bermuda Locket, Theta 5, Theta, White Fire.

NO BS maps

Preferentially the pool would be smaller and some of the maps would be rotated in and out every few weeks. For players that are just starting, having to play 20 different maps in their 20 first games is cruel. Also maps that are based on excessive reclaim (the ditch), or turtle maps(waters of isis) should be left out in order to save people's playing time.

Statistics: Posted by SeraphimLeftNut — 08 Oct 2014, 23:22

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-08T21:56:57+02:00

I totally agree to the privious posts. I started playing laddar 2 weeks ago and it is driving me crazy to play so many maps.
It is like you never feel at home with this game, because every map has something special, reclaim etc.. Me as a new player would really appreciate to have around 10 to 15 fixed maps, with should obviously be good maps. In addition to that I would suggest 5 dynamic maps which change every month. 90 maps in the pool is really too much!!! It is already hard enough to learn this game, so it would be really nice just to learn 10-15 maps to get the basics. I hope there will be a change soon.

Statistics: Posted by HopeAndWonder — 08 Oct 2014, 21:56

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-08T12:35:14+02:00

For what it's worth, with the upvote/downvote system new maps could be added to the mappool by the community very quickly. You would only need 10 people to upvote it.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 08 Oct 2014, 12:35

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-08T09:23:25+02:00

Just want to throw this in here:

If you reduce the map pool significantly and keep it small, so new maps can't really get in the pool, you create even less incentive for mappers to make new 1v1 focused maps...

I know for sure I wouldn't bother doing any more 1v1 focused maps if they won't get added to the pool anyway, because you want a small pool...

Statistics: Posted by Lionhardt — 08 Oct 2014, 09:23

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-08T02:12:09+02:00

I will provide a quick summary of what has been suggested because a lot of this thread is redundant and confusing. Please correct me if I missed anything.

Map Rotation. I see this asked for a lot.

Fewer maps in the pool. There's something like 100 maps in the pool. They are there for variety, although very many of them are not played often.

Fewer common maps between players. Currently, when two players are matched, if they have 15 common maps selected between them, one of those maps is selected. However, if there are not 15 common maps, one of the more popular ladder maps is chosen.

Map veto system. 5 or so maps that you would absolutely not play. Could be a good way to find the most hated maps.

Imbalanced maps. This should be based on PROOF (no anecdotal evidence). I believe there was a thread made earlier that asked for replays on imba maps.

Map voting system. Sort of an upvote/downvote system on how maps are chosen.

Broken/Actual imbalanced maps. Maps that don't offer both players the same opportunities (regardless of faction), or maps with weird terrain.

Adding new maps that already exist. This is not map rotation, just adding more maps that don't get enough love.

Remember what we're ultimately discussing. Ladder has very few players at higher levels that are still playing. We want to find a solution to that, although the ladder maps may just be one variable. Try to keep posts structured and avoid personal attacks in the forums. That's what aeolus is for

Statistics: Posted by SneakySnake — 08 Oct 2014, 02:12

Re: The reason why ladder is dead, and how to fix it

2014-10-07T00:42:41+02:00

As a lower rated player who plays the ladder pretty much every time I am on, I have to agree with previous statements that the ladder is not truly dead; however, it is abundantly clear that there are terrible maps in the ladder that almost never see play (and are a pain to play on when they do come up..), and there are certainly good maps out there which deserve a chance to get a spot in the map pool.

All this said, the simplest solution that could be implemented fairly quickly is to just cycle different maps through the map pool every so often, keep the top 10-15 that get played the most (or if we aren't tracking that information put it to a community vote for the first swap as to what is kept) in the last map cycle and swap all the rest for new maps, the current vote selection system isn't horrible, and if a map really doesn't work (like say crazyrush..) it will be gone when the next cycle of maps comes around (I'd suggest maybe 2-3 months between cycles).

Keep the same number of maps, it is nice to have the wide selection, but don't change much else, just cycle maps every few months, it will help get bad maps out of the pool and add more variety to ladder play, map selection is fine as is. From here if we want to figure out and test a different system we can, but lets start with the simplest solution first, its easy to implement and could be done at almost any point in the near future, if it doesn't work out we have better systems that we can take time to fully discuss and develop and at the very least it will improve the situation in the meantime.

Statistics: Posted by Rogueleader89 — 07 Oct 2014, 00:42