Forged Alliance Forever

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-04T17:07:58+02:00

Aeon Omni is rarely used, considering it's powerful alternatives. If you simply must scout something like deceivers or mermaids, the most suited scout is the sera scout, which leaves LoS on death.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 04 Jul 2014, 17:07

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-04T02:46:10+02:00

Icy wrote:
Oh and good luck making an omni at t2 stage.

Aeon ACU says hello.

This.

Was it sheeo or Tuna who got this on his com just because I liberally use decievers?

Statistics: Posted by Sovietpride — 04 Jul 2014, 02:46

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-04T02:05:06+02:00

"The problem with strategic stealth is that it relies on your opponent having bad situational awareness aka no scouting. In reality it's just bad play on the part of your opponent who should be scouting anyway.

Tactical Stealth is mildly useful before omni, but it's poor compared to guaranteed+stackable defensive abilities such as shields, and is near useless when the enemy is playing properly and has scout planes flying around.

If one is losing to stealth, one is simply being outplayed. Scouting is a basic skill for playing well in all RTS games and all factions in FAF."

Mostly true, but the sad reality is that your average player doesn't scout, at all! They have sometimes the nerve to ask you "please, scout our enemy", even if you are the only one scouting till that moment, as if they have no responsibility of their own. They are the same that demand to give them energy or mass anyway, just because they ask or who are too sure to make strategic suggestions(actually orders) even if they have no situational awareness as you put it!

That aside if someone plays, with a decent player, a convincing distraction has to be performed. One should have enough neuromotor reserves and multitasking abilities to do that.Then again if you play against jabba the hutt, who likes sitting on his ass, and makes fun of scouting you may as well knock on his door unexpectedly to surprise him.Because noone may openly admit it, but many people secretly do not accept the importance of scouting(they may actually think it's bad to lose units even if they are
scouts).They usually think that their "superior strategy" is above the lowly practice of scouting; in this case stealth may even seem like cheese.

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 04 Jul 2014, 02:05

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-03T21:35:44+02:00

Wakke wrote:
Paul Kauphart wrote:I think what he wants is rather that the building does NOT diseapear. Stealth is on, but you know the building is here because it was before the stealth field came online, however, once you start firing at it, since you have no intel on the location, there should be no way for you to know when the building goes down, so until you have updated intel, the building blip should stay on your map.

Edit : I think this should be true for actually every building not in sensor range, whether because of a stealth field or because you have no coverage of the area.

This guy gets it (the part he added in edit is also legit). Sheppard, take note!

Opened a topic for that in suggestion : http://www.faforever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8029

Statistics: Posted by Paul Kauphart — 03 Jul 2014, 21:35

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-03T21:21:42+02:00

You can actually fake a T3 upgrade like this, build stealthfield next to a factory, then it will appear as a ghost factory and enemy will think it's upgraded.

CTRL+k your t1 mexes, then rebuild them to make your enemy freak out and bait him into attacking you ^^

On topic: yes it's stupid that you get free intel on structures upgrading/dying even if you have no radar. However I heard that this is not something that can be fixed because it's in the engine.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 03 Jul 2014, 21:21

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-03T20:54:25+02:00

Paul Kauphart wrote:
I think what he wants is rather that the building does NOT diseapear. Stealth is on, but you know the building is here because it was before the stealth field came online, however, once you start firing at it, since you have no intel on the location, there should be no way for you to know when the building goes down, so until you have updated intel, the building blip should stay on your map.

Edit : I think this should be true for actually every building not in sensor range, whether because of a stealth field or because you have no coverage of the area.

This guy gets it (the part he added in edit is also legit). Sheppard, take note!

Statistics: Posted by Wakke — 03 Jul 2014, 20:54

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-03T16:37:44+02:00

I think what he wants is rather that the building does NOT diseapear. Stealth is on, but you know the building is here because it was before the stealth field came online, however, once you start firing at it, since you have no intel on the location, there should be no way for you to know when the building goes down, so until you have updated intel, the building blip should stay on your map.

Edit : I think this should be true for actually every building not in sensor range, whether because of a stealth field or because you have no coverage of the area.

Statistics: Posted by Paul Kauphart — 03 Jul 2014, 16:37

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-03T11:17:06+02:00

gnatinator wrote:
By the time T3 Air and omni rolls around any half decent player can have a stealth-proof view of most of the map with units they should be using anyway.

I'd like to make a complex statement here so people cant tell me to not write oneliners, but that is just plain wrong. Omni needs basicly an additional T3 PGEN + it only covers a 'relatively' small radius with it's full sight, on 20x20 this aint be as much as one might think, i dont know how you have full sight on the map when t3 Air rolls out, maybe you wanna share this wisdom with me.

Wakke wrote:
This is linked to a flaw in the intel system: when your opponent has 'ghost images' of your buildings and you then bring those buildings into a stealth field, your opponent can still attack those buildings from afar, and the attacking units will automatically know when the building is destroyed and thus when to switch to a different target.
This flaw weakens stealth considerably, imo.

w000t
So you want to make all buildings dissappear when you build a stealthfield, because that would totally make sense! The highly developed intel System of a culture that is able to build quantum gates and gigantic robots is not able to make the leap from: There is no more radar on the buildings -> The buildings are still there but stealthed?
What exactly could have otherwise happened to them?

You can actually fake a T3 upgrade like this, build stealthfield next to a factory, then it will appear as a ghost factory and enemy will think it's upgraded.

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 03 Jul 2014, 11:17

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-03T11:10:05+02:00

Sovietpride wrote:
Dubya is that you?

My bad.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 03 Jul 2014, 11:10

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-03T09:33:47+02:00

Oh and good luck making an omni at t2 stage.

Aeon ACU says hello.

Statistics: Posted by Icy — 03 Jul 2014, 09:33

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-03T07:30:44+02:00

gnatinator wrote:
Those points depend on the player having deficiencies in their play. Skilled players will already be scouting as part of their play.

By the time T3 Air and omni rolls around any half decent player can have a stealth-proof view of most of the map with units they should be using anyway.

I see this argument/attitude around here a LOT, and it always baffles me. Now I understand that I'm no pro, but your argument is essentially that good players don't make mistakes? That doesn't track with my experience, considering that 1) I've watched plenty of replays of upper level players where they don't notice things immediately and 2) even the best player is only human - they can only do and look at one thing at a time. If good players don't make mistakes or have any deficiencies in their play, then how do they ever lose?

You said it yourself: they can have a stealth proof view of "most" of the map. You only need to surprise them in the one part of the map they can't see. It's not like you have to catch them totally flat-footed - with something like a drop or TML, even a few seconds can make all the difference.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 03 Jul 2014, 07:30

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-01T07:28:05+02:00

gnatinator wrote:
Those points depend on the player having deficiencies in their play. Skilled players will already be scouting as part of their play.

By the time T3 Air and omni rolls around any half decent player can have a stealth-proof view of most of the map with units they should be using anyway.

Gorton wrote:Then what you get from it is absolute defense, since you can't shoot what you can't see.
True that Tactical Stealth can provide this in specific situations, but any sort of scouting counters it.

I think you're not getting the point here. On any 1v1 map if enemy has a deceiver in his army it is really annoying, you cant just 'scout' a deceiver since after you fly over all intel dissapears again.. You can use stealth in so many ways which isn't just countered by 'scouting'. Oh and good luck making an omni at t2 stage.

Statistics: Posted by D4E_Omit — 01 Jul 2014, 07:28

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-01T06:50:27+02:00

Those points depend on the player having deficiencies in their play. Skilled players will already be scouting as part of their play.

By the time T3 Air and omni rolls around any half decent player can have a stealth-proof view of most of the map with units they should be using anyway.

Gorton wrote:
Then what you get from it is absolute defense, since you can't shoot what you can't see.

True that Tactical Stealth can provide this in specific situations, but any sort of scouting counters it.

Statistics: Posted by gnatinator — 01 Jul 2014, 06:50

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-01T03:18:48+02:00

gnatinator wrote:
If one is losing to stealth, one is simply being outplayed. Scouting is a basic skill for playing well in all RTS games and all factions in FAF.

I have to agree with Gorton here... Wut? Of course you're being outplayed if you're losing to stealth, you're being outplayed if you're losing at all! That's what losing is.

Just because scouting is a basic skill does not mean that it takes no effort to do. At a minimum, even the most experienced and skilled player has to think about where to get and send their scouts and then input those commands in order to actually scout. This is time and effort not spent doing other things.

At any level of play, part of outplaying an opponent is forcing them to spend their time and attention reacting to what you are doing rather than allowing them to direct their efforts as they wish. Stealth is useful for this. Whether it is more useful than shields is irrelevant, as you can build both in the first place.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 01 Jul 2014, 03:18

Re: When is "Stealth" Viable?

2014-07-01T00:19:05+02:00

Gorton wrote:
If one is losing to stealth, one is simply being outplayed.

misunderestimate

Dubya is that you?

Statistics: Posted by Sovietpride — 01 Jul 2014, 00:19