Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2018-01-22T23:51:16+02:00

Didn't find any older thread to necro of the 200 ones on this topic we have lying around, did you? lol

How about this one? It is right on the first page of this subforum atm: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15472

Statistics: Posted by Lionhardt — 22 Jan 2018, 23:51

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-03-31T21:54:41+02:00

i think alot of the issues from the OP are very valid
games like this develop a 'core group' of gamers that wtfomgpwn most of the noobs that arrive
im in no way insinuating that you should let the noobs win, but getting owned every match without fail definatly isnt that much fun. maybe some matches where people show others how to play ( perhaps a 'top rank' player helping a noob defeat a couple of AIs or a sort of match balancer perhaps) the learning curve is extreemly high, and users can expect to have their collective buts handed to them over and over angain.
i have played a couple of games...had an appalling win / loss ratio, due to obviously being new to competitive play on supcom, unfortunatly users were certanally not quiet about venting their rage at me, making sure i knew full well that the loss was all my fault and instead of working hard to win the battle, they simply typed rage, then after the battle, continued to rage about me in private message and even into the next battle i saw the said user in. another issue is joining games to be told in no short terms to go away, then kicked out of the game. i hosted a game that was simply called 'noobs join' we got 2 people with low scores, then 3 users with much higher scores on the opposing team, after demanding we start the game i kicked them out, they re-joined 4/5 times before i gave up hosting. it seemed they were simply looking to crush some noobs for points ( a tactic ive seen many times on other games ) .i decided after that. i would stick to playing as a LAN only game between friends, yes we exchange banter for half the match, but we dont much care about who wins, to us its about having a fun match. and we can have matches free from raging folk.
this kind of rage puts off alot of users i think, my autistic brother ended up in floods of tears after the rage he recived playing here, even after explaining fully that he was new to the online side of the game. while this is likely the expetion as opposed to the rule, its still not something that entices users to continue playing. while obviously playing with a noob on your team puts you at a disadvantage, ailenating potential new regulars means that for the most part, only the 'core gamers' remain and while some users may prefer this, a larger community would surely benifit most users.

Statistics: Posted by arandomuser — 31 Mar 2012, 21:54

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-03-05T17:34:52+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
For the non-reported game, you have to report it

I have reported the game in post 02 Mar 2012, 18:00 in Board index > Forged Alliance Forever > FAF/FA Tech Support > Invalid custom scores thread.

Thanks.

Statistics: Posted by X-Peri-MENTAL — 05 Mar 2012, 17:34

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-03-05T15:45:54+02:00

As playing with a noob will lower your team chances or winning, it will indeed boost your rating if you win.

For the non-reported game, you have to report it

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 05 Mar 2012, 15:45

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-03-05T15:23:44+02:00

I played a game at the weekend with a beginner (I assumed so at the time as his rating was 0 and by the end of the game my assumption was verified). I was about 500+ at the time and two 1000+ players joined as our opponents. We won so I was looking forward to a nice rating boost but sadly the game did not report. As I understand it with what has been suggested before with TruSkill taking a Noob under your wing will in effect boost your own rating if you win as it is done by team ratings so there could be a bit of an incentive there for players looking for a bit of a challenge.

I think the system as it is works well and is more convenient than GPGnet + PlayerTrack (PT), I wouldn’t mind guessing quite a few players used to check out their team mates/opposition on PT before launching a game.

Like it has been said before there is nothing to stop beginners positing “Noob Only” games like the average and pro players post “No Noob” games, it is a question of manors at least explain or ask a Noob to leave before kicking without reason, treat others how you would like to be treated.

To a Noob reading this thread:
I too benefited from a Training lesson from a helpful player (forgotten their name now) but the next best thing is watching those replays and maybe asking any questions you have in the lobby.

Statistics: Posted by X-Peri-MENTAL — 05 Mar 2012, 15:23

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-03-01T00:14:00+02:00

atomcrusader wrote:
Glad to see that everyone is converging on the fact that current FA score display system
only gives *half* of the picture - the mean, and not the standard deviation.
On the other hand, displaying "400 +/- 40 N=4" is very thorough, but too much for most people
to bother with. Even if we would like to see that much detail, interface will be a challenge.

Hiding the score until the deviation is low enough is a better proposal; we certainly
need this feature in the absence of any visually compelling alternative to accurately
convey statistical significance.

I totally agree and it's part of the original design. Many things are displayed now for debugging purpose only :
- Scores at the end of the game (will be gone once all is fixed).
- You are gonna fight XXX during ranked (almost gone now).
- The fact that the ladder can match you with anybody (it's on purpose to ease the debug process)
- and finally these ratings visible almost immediately (instead of displaying them when they are relevants).

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 01 Mar 2012, 00:14

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-03-01T00:08:59+02:00

atomcrusader wrote:
FAF is very special to me because it is my first online gaming experience. My first match
was a team game, and I was hooked by how helpful and gentlemanly cptcrowbar et al. were.
However, I lost a couple of games and was kicked out, rudely, for one game.
Had I not have that positive first impression, I would have gone away for good. :")

And that's why FAF is not ready to be released for a broader audience. I know it's tempting, but don't advertise it yet. We are still in a debugging phase, then there will be a couple of changes to not drive away newcomers. But the bugs are the priority now.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 01 Mar 2012, 00:08

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-02-29T23:58:52+02:00

Doompants wrote:
Good to hear. I know I stuck around and "fought through" the low ranking, but a couple days ago, I saw another new player complain about getting kicked just because he was new, and asking what kind of assholes we were.

It is a community problem first, but what you're doing may help a bit.

FAF is very special to me because it is my first online gaming experience. My first match
was a team game, and I was hooked by how helpful and gentlemanly cptcrowbar et al. were.
However, I lost a couple of games and was kicked out, rudely, for one game.
Had I not have that positive first impression, I would have gone away for good. :")

Winning or losing, being accepted for one's first few games are paramount to a
thriving FAF community.

uberge3k wrote:
If you want to get rid of your low score, play a few ranked games. Or host your own game. There will always be that section of the community who won't want to jeopardize their chances of winning a teamgame by having a new player on their team, so if you're continually kicked by them, simply stop joining their games.

Ranked games never came across my mind as something to try when I first logged onto FAF.
I see the merit of your point, Uber: ranked games have separate score listing and does not
prevent you from joining custom games even if you keep losing in the former.
More ranked matches from new players allow easier mentoring as well. Very good potential
for improvement, once the new players stick around and learn from these resources.
Like self-hosted game (which was how I moved up), this offers new players a venue
to play without fear of rejection by experienced, not-so-friendly players.

The rest of my discussion pertains to new players who want to join others' game.
We care about new players joining games and getting turned off by rejections.
It is perfectly OK for good players to desire a challenging game, as long as they convey
this intent politely to the newcomer and ask them to join later. Sadly, I am most
concerned about kicks-without-warning and other verbal abuse that often haunt new players.

Doompants wrote:
Hey, Uber-, I'm not sure this is about people not wanting to improve. I think this is about people being misrepresented after only a couple matches.

Glad to see that everyone is converging on the fact that current FA score display system
only gives *half* of the picture - the mean, and not the standard deviation.
On the other hand, displaying "400 +/- 40 N=4" is very thorough, but too much for most people
to bother with. Even if we would like to see that much detail, interface will be a challenge.

Hiding the score until the deviation is low enough is a better proposal; we certainly
need this feature in the absence of any visually compelling alternative to accurately
convey statistical significance.

At any rate, people who do not want new players in their game can always ask people
they don't recognize how many games they've played, and their win ratio. With the
masking system, they might lump masked score players into one category:
not-worth-my-time. If, right now, people scoring low positive scores have a slightly higher chance
of joining one game, then later, everyone with masked score get the same treatment from
unsavory hosts: a kick. xD

We certainly need a multi-pronged approach to both reduce the chance of new players
getting kicked unceremoniously AND promoting them to play more games on FAF.
The replay upload system, recommending players to join ranked, and masking scores
until they become meaningful should all go together.

Statistics: Posted by atomcrusader — 29 Feb 2012, 23:58

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-02-29T21:01:54+02:00

No, Uber-

You can play a bunch more games, and if you win your score starts to look better. I get that. but were talking the first 5 games someone plays. I had a score that was getting me insulted and ejected by members the community after only 4 *TEAM* games. I tell you right now that's enough of an experience to make some people quit from abuse, just because of bad team luck. That's not what I call newbie friendly.

Statistics: Posted by Doompants — 29 Feb 2012, 21:01

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-02-29T20:56:13+02:00

Doompants wrote:
Hey, Uber-, I'm not sure this is about people not wanting to improve. I think this is about people being misrepresented after only a couple matches.

The problem is, they're both linked.

If you want to get rid of your low score, play a few ranked games. Or host your own game. There will always be that section of the community who won't want to jeopardize their chances of winning a teamgame by having a new player on their team, so if you're continually kicked by them, simply stop joining their games.

thygrrr wrote:
Is megatron219's rating, currently top of the global ladder, correct (as in, is his deviation low enough)?

It's cases like his that undermine the faith in TrueSkill, despite it being the better system.

Yes, unfortunately, outliers like that are indeed possible.

When Saduga first started playing on FAF, he won his first dozen games in a row. His rating was over 2500 IIRC.

This is why I had previously suggested not putting people on the leaderboards until they've lost a few games.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 29 Feb 2012, 20:56

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-02-29T20:06:11+02:00

Is megatron219's rating, currently top of the global ladder, correct (as in, is his deviation low enough)?

It's cases like his that undermine the faith in TrueSkill, despite it being the better system.

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 29 Feb 2012, 20:06

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-02-29T20:26:19+02:00

Good to hear. I know I stuck around and "fought through" the crazy-low ranking, but a couple days ago, I saw another new player complain about getting kicked just because he was new, and asking what kind of assholes we were.

It is a community problem first, but what you're doing may help a bit.

Statistics: Posted by Doompants — 29 Feb 2012, 20:02

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-02-29T19:35:13+02:00

I'm totally for masking the rank under a certain deviation value. That is already the case in the leaderboard (but not enough).

The problem being FA displaying them no matter what

But we have now a pretty good way to control it in the next iteration of the lobby...

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 29 Feb 2012, 19:35

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-02-29T19:33:36+02:00

Doompants wrote:
Hey, Uber-, I'm not sure this is about people not wanting to improve. I think this is about people being misrepresented after only a couple matches.

^This. Yeah, the issue is not that the rating system is bad, but a lot of people are mislead into assessing the skill of a player when they're still new.

Statistics: Posted by Sunder — 29 Feb 2012, 19:33

Re: Some ideas to make FAF newbie friendlier

2012-02-29T19:32:30+02:00

Hey, Uber-, I'm not sure this is about people not wanting to improve. I think this is about people being misrepresented after only a couple matches.

Statistics: Posted by Doompants — 29 Feb 2012, 19:32