Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-16T23:26:40+02:00

675

I don't get all the fuss about costs after the decimal point. I've had people (multiple!!) claim that T1 engies supporting T3 air facs that build ASFs don't cost any mass, just energy

On my screen it shows the cost with a digit behind the decimal point. Don't know why others don't see that.

Iszh wrote:
i was thinking about this again and realized if you use storages next to mass fabs the bonus will disappear because they stop to produce, so maybe you re right that the adjacency is simply a bug. But on the other hand here i added a list of how much costs 1 mass income with different ways to produce it watch the section with t3 mass fabs and compare to sacu :

Mass income.jpg

T2 mass fab farms are 12 mass fabs with 4 storages
T3 mass fab farms are 4 t3 pgens with 5 connected t3 mass fabs
(1mass fab is in the middle)

Watching those values i think the only rebalancing which could be done would be to rduce a bit the massive explosion of mass fabs.

Edit: removed a mistake with t3 mass fab farm i didnt remove the e produced by the t3 pgens

Paragon:
Cost 250,200 mass
Yields 10,000 mass/s
m cost / m income: 25,02

There you have it. At only the cost of 39 RAS SCU's

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 16 May 2014, 23:26

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-16T16:22:35+02:00

fractional mass income counts too ?

if I surround a t2 mex with 1 mass storage,
I get 675 mass after 100 seconds, or do i get 600 ?

Statistics: Posted by Vmcsnekke — 16 May 2014, 16:22

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-16T14:42:35+02:00

I removed 1300 mass from prize ---> 1,3 rate of a t3 pgen mass/e to produce energy --> 2100 mass sacu + 4500 mass ras - 1300 mass for e income the result you see. If you compare this for example to normal acu ras cybran has nearly no cost for the mass income. The energy income of cybran Ras (3500) is so high it is nearly all the costs 5000 mass for the whole ras. The mass income is very cheap.

So what you are talking about is taken in consideration already in my list.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 16 May 2014, 14:42

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-16T14:11:00+02:00

Iszh wrote:
While watching this thing i calculated and i have myself extremely extended version of it, it shows me that there is only 1 way to increase mass income after t3 mex with storage. Thats t2 mass fabs. Sacus are hell expensive but thats ok since it is a massive fighting engi

Add the power you gain from SACUs and it comes in another light. You can get the mass value of the power gain if you use T3 Pgen Mass / Energy ratio, i.e. you need to put less mass into pgens if you're building SACUs with RAS.

Statistics: Posted by Crotalus — 16 May 2014, 14:11

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-16T09:44:54+02:00

While watching this thing i calculated and i have myself extremely extended version of it, it shows me that there is only 1 way to increase mass income after t3 mex with storage. Thats t2 mass fabs. Sacus are hell expensive but thats ok since it is a massive fighting engi. But the t3 mass fabs are completely out of any use highly volatile and cost / mass income are insane. switched off next to working t3 land facs they reach a good use. But thats nothing you can really abuse since nobody will built 200 t3 land factories

The realistic order is following according to my calculations:
1. t1 mex
2. t2 mex
3. RAS
4. t2 mex with storage
5. 4x t2 mass fabs next to mex storages
6. t3 mex with storage
7. Endless fields of t2 mass fabs without anything inside.

If you want to increase the use a bit of the t2 mass fabs you can add t3 pgens inside. All other adjacency bonuses are useless compared to real efforts for the t2 mass fabs. For example t1 pgens inside produce together with adjacency 57,5 e. If you calculate now the production of them compared to cost it is exactly 1,3 like a t3 pgen. So another trick is to built you t1 pgens from beginning that you can insert t2 mass fabs inside later like i do in my templates. Then you can increase efficiency of the t1 gpens later fast before going to t3 mexes. And you have a use of the futile energy.

So there are 4 different use types of t2 mass fabs according to efficiency:
1. T2 mex & storage extension built 4 mass fabs addidional to each mex maybe even 8
2. T2 mass fab fields with t1 pgens (alternative to remove the t1 pgens)
3. T2 Mass fabs next to t3 pgens
4. Simply built big blocks of t2 mass fabs without anyting else

Small tipp from my side you need 2 time the size of a t1 pgen between the optimal 4x4 fields to avoid chain reactions

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 16 May 2014, 09:44

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-16T09:42:58+02:00

A nuclear reactor is still incredibly dangerous when it's turned off. I know these aren't nuclear, but that's clearly the logic here, even when off they would still be volatile. Overall I am all for rebalancing T3 Fabs (Again) alongside fixing this bug. More Mass, less Power, less Adjacency, something like that.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 16 May 2014, 09:42

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-16T09:25:36+02:00

The adjacency issue (still working when mass fabs are off) is probably not a bug, but rather that it was probably not programmed to be disabled when mass fabs are off by GPG. The original adjacency values for mass fabs were meaningless. It's a combination of engy mod super high buildrates for t3 factories and a buff to mass fabs adjacency that created somehow this problem, though t3 mass fabs, without adjacency would pretty much be useless.

However, GPG didn't either turn off the volatile attribute of mass fabs when they are off, so they are still a risk in the base when they are only used for adjacency. Ideally, someone would disable both volatile aspect and adjancency when mass fabs are off, but it's easier said than done. Alternatively, the "issue" can be lessened by tuning adjacency values / explosion values and maybe mass output (so that it's worth it to leave a t3 mass fab on instead of turning it off and using only adjacency, and reduce adjacency efficiency at the same time).

Statistics: Posted by pip — 16 May 2014, 09:25

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-16T08:02:34+02:00

i was thinking about this again and realized if you use storages next to mass fabs the bonus will disappear because they stop to produce, so maybe you re right that the adjacency is simply a bug. But on the other hand here i added a list of how much costs 1 mass income with different ways to produce it watch the section with t3 mass fabs and compare to sacu :

Mass income.jpg

T2 mass fab farms are 12 mass fabs with 4 storages
T3 mass fab farms are 4 t3 pgens with 5 connected t3 mass fabs
(1mass fab is in the middle)

Watching those values i think the only rebalancing which could be done would be to rduce a bit the massive explosion of mass fabs.

Edit: removed a mistake with t3 mass fab farm i didnt remove the e produced by the t3 pgens

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 16 May 2014, 08:02

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-14T23:50:42+02:00

I consider adjacency from a different point of view. For me, it exists to simulate the distance relationship between supply location and demand location. If you imagine the Mass output of a generating structure as not the total Mass generated, but the amount generate which makes it to the global distribution centre, then adjacency makes sense. Less Mass is wasted on transport, so you invisibly get some back. I'm fairly sure that was the original idea behind it. If the structure is turned off, the Factory has to get more mass from the central depot and the cost goes up. Think of it as like modern CO2 transport taxes

Kinda beside the point though. I can't fix it, and neither can Crotalus (Not without an enormous amount of work on something which may not work anyway), who is a far better coder than I.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 14 May 2014, 23:50

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-14T20:13:51+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
I get the feeling you weren't around back when T3 Fabs were the default. It was a nasty, static, degenerate game. Even so, the correct way to do this is to fix the bug, THEN re-balance the unit. A unit can always be balanced, then rebalanced, then rebalanced again to hone it ever closer to the desires of this community. The other way around is not an option.

Are you talking about Vanilla or original FA? Because vanilla aside, I would say that a much larger factor than fabs was the way shields worked. Now that it is much more difficult to defend, the game would degenerate into static ecoing much less whether fabs were viable or not. I can certainly agree with your second point though.

IceDreamer wrote:
SCU spam should never have been made the default. It's a stupid option which disconnects the vulnerability of Economy from strategic exploitation, and it would be great were it replaced by T3 Fabricators for functionality.

Thank you! It always frustrates me that we see players skipping late game generating structures entirely and going straight to SCU ras. Given how a large number of SCUs make not only resources but even whole bases obsolete. (Why make shields, PD, and SMD when you can just walk all of your gun wielding engineers/resource generators away from any oncoming attacks they can't already beat on their own?) We shouldn't see massive groups of 100+ SCUs until the endgame, when T4s are your primary units.

I wouldn't argue that adjacency shouldn't function when the structures are turned off though.

From a balance perspective, they still explode when turned off, so there's still a risk balancing out the reward. From a 'logic' perspective, it makes sense - The resources are global, it's not like a factory only uses resources supplied by a pgen, mex, or fab that it is adjacent to. So if structures generate resources they must also be involved in distributing resources. (It doesn't happen by magic, we just don't factor it into the game in a significant way because we want the game to be focused on other things.) Resource generating units would increase the efficiency of attached resource consuming units whether they are activated or not, because they can use their own mechanisms to supplement attached factories and make them more efficient. Think of it as the principle behind what adjacency represents, and the same reason storages can 'magically' increase the output of attached generators.

If you can fix the bug though, that would be interesting. It might lead to another rebalancing of fabs, which is sorely needed.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 14 May 2014, 20:13

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-14T20:05:49+02:00

So you gonna tell me that you want to produce all the time bombers and gunships in air factory ? i do not beleave you lolololol

air factories produce asf. once you won airfight you can pay bombers and gunships you need them fast with assist, no time to wait the factories. But land once you produce you will not stop

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 14 May 2014, 20:05

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-14T19:41:19+02:00

Iszh wrote:
what else not the built power is important ! the Mass / s use is important and land factories use a lot.

Exactly! you're wrong here! t3 Air factory drains -24 when produces gunships and -30 when produces strats, and -32 for t3 transports
Gates drain around -20 -30 but they have reduced bonuces as far as i know (actually i only heared that but i do not know for sure)

template of 4 fabs and 5 facs cost 19550 mass
each link in that template saves 6 mass per sec, 12 links, 72 mass per sec, 19550/72 = 271.53 = 4 min 31 sec to pay off, that is actually not as nice as i expected, considering that t2 mass fab pay off for 1 min 40 sec

but you can also keep thouse fabs runnig and get addictional mass, or expand template to get more connections between buildings cheaper

t2 massfabs seems really inefficient in case of adjucency

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 14 May 2014, 19:41

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-14T19:12:34+02:00

UEF Land factory uses 19 mass / s for a percival with a t3 mass fab it is reduced to 15. There is even 1 unit a very useful one which uses 21 masss/s and it is reduced by 5 /s so of course land factories ZLO what else not the built power is important ! the Mass / s use is important and land factories use a lot.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 14 May 2014, 19:12

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-14T15:21:51+02:00

The only way to make them useful is to connect them to at least 3 t3 land factories and let them be switched off by mass fab manager

you mean air factories i guess, cause land facs have only 90 build power and air fac have 120 and drain more mass while produceing gunships and bombers
some players already calculated that templates with 5 factories and 4 t3 massfabs will pay for themself pretty fast

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 14 May 2014, 15:21

Re: Mass Fabricator + Factory

2014-05-14T15:15:00+02:00

Yeah with the addition it could be solved by keeping track of the adjacent buildings a structure has and then inform those when you toggle something on / off.

There doesn't seem to be another way of getting a the adjacent buildings a structure have?

Statistics: Posted by Crotalus — 14 May 2014, 15:15