Forged Alliance Forever

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-10T16:59:01+02:00

having attention for everything is also a part of skill

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 10 Apr 2014, 16:59

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-10T16:42:08+02:00

Managing mex upgrades (Or mass fabs if you ever actually use them) is hardly the entirety of the game's economy. The more important part of the economy is choosing what to spend it on. On that regard, auto-mex-upgrade mods can actually be harmful by spending mass on things you shouldn't without you really having been involved on making the decision.

To everything there is a position and a negative. It's really not that difficult to manage mex upgrades, or even turn mass fabs on and off (again, who actually builds mass fabs?), anyway.

Statistics: Posted by RedX — 10 Apr 2014, 16:42

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-10T02:50:17+02:00

Aulex wrote:
I find managing my economy fun

More to the point manage Economy is part of this game's skillset. Frankly if someone is of the mentality that they dislike managing their Eco so much they are willing to blur the line of what's acceptable, they should go find an easier game...

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 10 Apr 2014, 02:50

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-10T01:19:46+02:00

I find managing my economy fun

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 10 Apr 2014, 01:19

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-10T00:49:43+02:00

Yeah but doing that in the middle of the game is the equivalent of clicking game options when hosting a game. I do not know about the rest of you but I have a ton of files that must be read through to gather the relevant info to be displayed in the UI, which results in the game just hanging for a bit. The same file operation occurs when you are in the middle of a game and select show game info. Even worse, you will lock down the game till the file operation completes because you will just kill the sim speed by bottlnecking for everyone.

Frankly it is just best to leave UI mods alone. You will just start an arms race that will just waste everyone’s time. We are playing a video game, one that is no longer supported by the developer, just a bunch of nice people with knowledge and willing to give their time. This game is not about microing units, it is about strategy. Sure you get some benefit and an advantage from micro but many people do not consider managing your economy to that level fun. We are here to have fun, not work. A player’s ability to manage the battlefield should not depend so intensely on controlling each and every thing and fighting with the UI. There is a game for that, it has a developer with deep pockets and continues to support the game and the entire eco-system around it. It has a huge community, and if you are real good in that game you can make a living off of it. SupCom has never had all of things going for it. Some areas it was close, but let’s get realistic. Even Chris Taylor said this about controlling when he was making the game “In SC, your Eisenhower, not Patton,” bottom of p. 28

As for the Doger mod, we already receive an alarm when a nuke goes off. I find it very odd that we are not shown the source of this nuke (imagine if we can launch dummy nukes and you will only know if they are real with omni, that would be a nice distraction). It just makes things that we could already see, just be seen quicker and better. If you already scouted the base then you know where it already is coming from. All the other UI mods, just allows to player to do what they wanted to do, blow stuff up.

This game was built with modding in mind both to help players and bring new experiences. We can make the game play how we want that makes us feel comfortable and have a good time. Let us not focus on the competitive aspects to much. There are already too few of us and that competitive scene with the high money tournaments, popularity, etc. will not be coming here at that level, ever.

If you can contribute (modding, casting, web developing) please do so and participate in the balance periods by playing games with the patch.

Statistics: Posted by The Mak — 10 Apr 2014, 00:49

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T16:48:42+02:00

Power button on top > "show game info"

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 09 Apr 2014, 16:48

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T14:59:22+02:00

how about during every balance period the latest UI mods are also reviewed and it is decided if they are OP or not?
it could be a problem though when there are more and more mods.

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 09 Apr 2014, 14:59

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T14:26:45+02:00

i have won my last 7 global games and all of those lasted about 30 minutes so i think my eco should be fine.

fact is massfabs are not huge because otherwise all those ecowhores out there would use them - but actually they are mostly used if you run out of mexes
because there are actually other ways to use overbuild power that could actually help you win the game (mobile shield,air,nuke)

now this nuketrace seems a little too powerfull but imo its not OP because of the way Nukes work - they have a pretty big delay making them not usefull to snipe mobile targets in most of the cases to begin with

ecomod gives you advantages sure but lets be honest about the eco sharing part - how often do we actually see teamplay in most games?
fact is in 95% of the games the team aspect is so low that this part simply doesnt get used by anyone (afaik it displays its use ingame if it is used)

about the energythrottle - sure its nice lategame but i fail to see why for example having a buildorder advantage is more justified than having this advantage. and lets not forget all ecomod throttles is overbuilt buildpower - how to counter this is simple play without overbuilding buildpower and still crush him (buildpower is also what mostly hold massfabs at bay - you need a substantial investment into buildpower before you can spam them)

Statistics: Posted by Lame — 09 Apr 2014, 14:26

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T13:28:48+02:00

Lame wrote:
Blodir wrote:
Mr-Smith wrote:ya realy stop thinking mass fab manager helps you.
there is no point to build massfabs on 99% of the maps and if you realy have to build them keep your eco balanced.

Build 1 massfab over your energy production and you wont be wasting any energy at all. Extremely useful especially when getting huge energy spikes like ras or t3 pgen. It's a huge advantage if used right.

+1 mass income can give you huge advantage ?
-150 energy income can full use overbuilt power from ras

wow such insight to this game tell me more

Obviously it is case sensitive, you build as many mass fabs as you need. They are actually quite efficient when built next to mass storage.

You wouldn't know about eco though, when's the last time you won a game that lasted longer than 10 minutes?

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 09 Apr 2014, 13:28

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T11:44:27+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
Wakke wrote:I agree with the OP. This is a real downer for newbies trying to get into this game.

Yeah. No. Overstatement. Mass Fab manager wont make you a a good player if you are a bad one and as a good player you should have a balanced eco anyway, combined with the fact that mass fabs are everything but efficient i cant agree that this specific mod is anyhow a problem.

I don't think the argument is that mod is actually useful, more the issues is that the mechanic is allowed.

Statistics: Posted by Cuddles — 09 Apr 2014, 11:44

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T11:26:32+02:00

errorblankfield wrote:
UI mods only allow for just that, minor/unfun things no longer taking up mental time.

Right. But that does change the game. Because attention is a limited resource. If mods help you to for instance eco better, then you can spend your attention on other things, which should make you play better.
If I understand right, now there are mods that make you upgrade mexes more efficiently with less attention, which turn on/off mass fabs, which share eco with teammates. What's next, a mod that gives your engies manual reclaim orders?

I'm not saying that the mods in use now should be forbidden. There should be room for innovation and for personalizing. And I never used those mods, so I won't say what is right or wrong. But do I think that it is good that there is discussion about when the line of unfairness is being crossed.

Statistics: Posted by ax0lotl — 09 Apr 2014, 11:26

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T11:23:34+02:00

"Any game with a competitive side has these idiosyncrasies/quirks that remove trivial parts of the game but require you know how to download and install basic things. "

Apart from the most competitive, most strategic, purest game in all existance: Chess.

This whole argument only ever developed because with competitive console gaming and un-moddable or un-enforceable PC gaming, the argument has focussed around "If you can do it, you should do it, win at all costs, because if you don't someone else will". In more ancient times, such an attitude would have been equal to bringing poisoned blades to a melee, or setting traps in the arena before a fight, which are obviously wrong things to do on so many levels.

We are in a position where we no longer need concern ourselves with "If it can be done, do it", we can enforce rules here, and so must think about what is acceptable and what is not. IMO, any mod which does for you something which would take significant APM or is impossible to do manually should not be allowed, as well as any mod which gives you an unfair notification of incoming danger (Keeping an eye everywhere is one part of this game's skill). If we are to make this the ultimate strategy game, then everyone must be playing by the same rulebook, and that rulebook must be the default one.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 09 Apr 2014, 11:23

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T08:49:02+02:00

Flipper wrote:
Does anyone know if you can tell what mods are in a game via the replay?

I think you can only see it's behavior (like the pausing of stuff when almost powerstalling, nobody can do it like this mod).

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 09 Apr 2014, 08:49

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T06:03:34+02:00

Is there a benefit to some UI mods? Yes
Is it unfair to newbies? Yes

Should anything be changed? No, imo.

Any game with a competitive side has these idiosyncrasies/quirks that remove trivial parts of the game but require you know how to download and install basic things.
In TF2 we have scripts that let you do similar things -change crosshairs for every weapon, remove menu navigation, etc.- and people make the same 'it's not fair to newbs' debate but the result is the same -no change.

Why? It's the ideal solution. Once you are at the point you can justifiably be upset by such mods, you have zero reason to not use them yourself. Moreover, it's a rite of passage. When you first get the game, you aren't going to mod it, you will try a few vanilla matches. Later, once you've proven you actually want to be a part of the community, we let you in to our little UI mod secret. It's not a well hidden secret... but it's something to separate brand newbies and people that have been around the block.

It's unfair until you put in the two seconds to join our community. And frankly, pissing those people off (over this) isn't something I think we need to worry about. Like I said, once they even realize it's a thing, they'll just download it. When I realized it UI mods existed, I didn't feel spite cause I didn't find out about it sooner. I didn't think 'I would have won a X more games'. Instead, I saw it as an opportunity to stop worrying about minor parts of the game and focus on the fun stuff.

Which at the end of the day, UI mods only allow for just that, minor/unfun things no longer taking up mental time. The benefits to 'skill' are marginal if you compare the same person with and without such mods. Removing UI mods won't change relative ranking. The people that are good now will just have to adapt to doing the stuff their mods did for them. The end result isn't them being worst at the game, just having to 'waste' time toggling stuff. You can't think about trying new strategies if every game requires insane micromanagement for something that clearly should be autonomous.

To try an make an analogy, it's like how your ACU fires automatically if units are in range. Sure, we could make it so that you have to manually target or 'switch to attack mode' -whatever. But it adds no depth to the game and is just unfun. It would stagnate meta game growth for some menial tasks that no one wants.

So sorry newbies, but you're going to have to take one for the team. Once you find this offensive, install them yourself -problem solved.

(The above is my opinion on the matter, not aiming to be insulting but it may come off gruff. I've done this conversation a few times in a few games, so I'm trying to both state that it won't change (if only cause zep won't allow it) and why it shouldn't. I'm sorry I can't phrase it much better, please understand I could have just not bothered explaining at all and argued with you -I just want to illustrate a POV. Feel free to disagree and fight for change.)

Statistics: Posted by errorblankfield — 09 Apr 2014, 06:03

Re: UI Mod Concerns

2014-04-09T05:23:32+02:00

the mod we are talking about are not UI mods.
they are actually AI mods.
if they would not give any advantage they would not be used. we should at least be honest enough to accept obvious facts.
the mods may have started in good faith as a "pimp my ride", but what they end up producing is the FA doping problem.
performance increasing substances are regulated in sports. formula one cars have to obey performance limitations.
you cannot bring a computer to a chess tournament.
also be aware that AI mods can be automatically detected in a replay file, because no human would toggle mass fabricators
every 5 seconds for 20 minutes straight.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 09 Apr 2014, 05:23