Forged Alliance Forever Forged Alliance Forever Forums 2014-04-07T16:44:43+02:00 /feed.php?f=2&t=7162 2014-04-07T16:44:43+02:00 2014-04-07T16:44:43+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70729#p70729 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>
The first post of pip in this thread is him admitting that he did a typo.

You really need to calm down, or you will rejoin dillidalli and the others.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 07 Apr 2014, 16:44


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2014-04-07T16:43:08+02:00 2014-04-07T16:43:08+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70728#p70728 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]> admitting them that is the problem. It seems as soon as somebody gets on to the BT, they believe they cannot make a mistake.

... That's bad FYI.


So if the balance team are so impartial ... why is it that they are all playing Cybran?

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 07 Apr 2014, 16:43


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2014-04-07T16:39:03+02:00 2014-04-07T16:39:03+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70724#p70724 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>
Anaryl wrote:
I'm not sure why you tried to pull a fast one here. 538 players is the vast majority of FAF? That's your total sample size. Last player record


Still 538 times bigger than your sample size for saying that a lot of people are unhappy.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 07 Apr 2014, 16:39


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2014-04-07T16:36:41+02:00 2014-04-07T16:36:41+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70722#p70722 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>
Do you also realize that way bigger errors were made by GPG even with the help of the community for 3603?

What the balance team did is not what I call "being bad at doing something", quite the contrary.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 07 Apr 2014, 16:36


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2014-04-07T16:37:06+02:00 2014-04-07T16:30:47+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70721#p70721 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>

I don't fire people that does things. Because you can be 100% that if I refuse anyone that made a mistake to make anything anymore for FAF, it will be long dead.

Nobody is paid, and there is no QA team, except the players. During the balance period, you can check any change made.
Your mistake for not doing it.

If you think you can make a better job, do it. It's open sourced for a reason.


I'm not saying people should be fired in this exact instance. I'm saying you need to "motivate" them ... angrily.

As for participating in balance - what's the point? Everytime a balance rotation comes around, I think of small tweaks that can be made - and I post them, but they aren't very "sexy" - however in the next thread over, somebody with reasonable name recognition or just some persistence can come in with some cool sounding change that does absolutely nothing for balance. In politics, it's called pork-barrelling - here I think it's just pandering. Simply put, balance changes that appeal to players partiality will outcompete those that benefit the community as a whole. If you want an example of it in practise, just watch literally any election.

I would never subject a team I assembled to work under such conditions.


"General prevention uses the punishment of the offender to prevent others from committing crimes. It has been argued that sending an offender to prison has three effects.

Firstly through fear of suffering a similar fate to the offender, the general public is deterred from committing similar crimes [Lessnoff, 1971:141].
Secondly, by sending on offender to prison, a proclamation is issued specifying that it is morally wrong to disobey the law.
Lastly, “with fear or moral influence as the intermediate link...unconscious inhibitions against crime...establishes a condition of habitual lawfulness” [Andenaes, 1974:8]."


I couldn't find the study I was looking for (I read it like in 07) - but if the threat of punishment for wrong doing is in place - people will work harder to not make simple mistakes.


Nobody is paid


Just because players aren't remunerated does not mean they do not they do not receive rewards from their work. Simply, they are paid in rating. Just curiously - do you have access to the rating stats of balance team members - (well ofc you do) - I wonder what happens when we cross reference their performance since they joined the balanced team.


It's actually not.

The latest poll we've made proof that the vast majority of people is very happy.
http://www.faforever.com/?p=586


I'm not sure why you tried to pull a fast one here. 538 players is the vast majority of FAF? That's your total sample size. Last player record

"8192PlayForFun 3"



According to Wolfram Alpha your sample size is about 6.5% of the FAF population. So the question is: Did you make that argument in good faith? Pick careful now son.


Never saw that. Or it's a part so small it's irrelevant.
...
Source?

I'm not going to put others in it - but how do you expect me to source chat, and expressed opinions? I fully believe members of the community are capable of speaking for themselves. Others have just resigned themselves to it, as they feel expressing dissent will get them banned. Which it does. (why isn't exivo a mod anymore? Prey tell, where is ToeJams? BulletMagnet? Karottenrambo? FunkOff? DilliDalli? ... you get my drift by this point).


Oh and do you know what I hear in chat from IceDreamer - that Zock wants to "nerf snowball economy" by rebalancing mexes? Are you even aware of what they are getting up to? Oh and interestingly enough not only do these balancers think that they are the first to come up with this stuff - but they ignore all previous forum discussions on the matter.


fafisdead.png
I don't think you quite understand but a lot of players are seeing the writing on the wall. It's up to you if you want to keep your head in the sand.

edit:

I think you need a serious reality check.


Head in the sand it is then?


The reason why my team didnt get as many votes was because the two other teamleaders were Zock and Blackheart. High rating doesn't mean you can balance the game or manage a project of this size. Unequivocally though my team had the very best modders - 75% of the other teams couldn't/cannot even code.


I don't think any of your change is in FAF, if you did any.


Sparky. Do you think you should be managing this project if you cannot remember simple things like that? I'm kidding, I know you remembered - you just lie to undermine me, because I don't know, you're insecure or something.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 07 Apr 2014, 16:30


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2014-04-07T15:55:47+02:00 2014-04-07T15:55:47+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70715#p70715 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>
Anaryl wrote:
Zep: you again prove my point by refusing to put a floor/ceiling on incompetence. Tell us, if this kind of terrible housekeeping is par for the course, exactly how badly do you have to f*** things up to get fired?


I don't fire people that does things. Because you can be 100% that if I refuse anyone that made a mistake to make anything anymore for FAF, it will be long dead.

Nobody is paid, and there is no QA team, except the players. During the balance period, you can check any change made.
Your mistake for not doing it.

If you think you can make a better job, do it. It's open sourced for a reason.

Anaryl wrote:
Parts of the community have been expressing discontent about how badly balance is prioritised.


Never saw that. Or it's a part so small it's irrelevant.

Anaryl wrote:
good for you, but a lot of people don't.

Source?


Anaryl wrote:
It's hard to judge what the majority of the community think

It's actually not.

The latest poll we've made proof that the vast majority of people is very happy.
http://www.faforever.com/?p=586



It's hard to judge what the majority of the community think - but a lot of people in my timezones (basically the 12 hour off peak time) think that balance decisions are being made in bad faith, to benefit a few and that you are complicit in it. Personally I think you're all just half-assing this to next sunday. It will be harder to combat the former impression the longer your boot remains outside the balance team's collective asses.


If people really think that, why your team had almost no vote during the balance period, while the last one had most of it?

I think you need a serious reality check.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 07 Apr 2014, 15:55


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2014-04-07T15:49:40+02:00 2014-04-07T15:49:40+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70711#p70711 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>
Anaryl wrote:
Mistakes are okay. Continuous mistakes with absolutely no transparency that cause other bugs that are only picked up by players.


!?

If the bug was known from the coder, it would be fixed before the user had a chance to get his hands on it, like 99,9999% of the bugs the team is solving everyday during a balance period.


Curious you would say that since you know for a fact that's not true. How many ensuing bugs came from my changes ? None?


I don't think any of your change is in FAF, if you did any.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 07 Apr 2014, 15:49


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2014-04-07T15:57:19+02:00 2014-04-07T15:35:29+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70707#p70707 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>

I'm 100% that Anaryl never did ANY mistake with the code, as he never did anything with it.
Easier to not screw things that way :)


Curious you would say that since you know for a fact that's not true. How many ensuing bugs came from my changes ? None?

Zep: you again prove my point by refusing to put a floor/ceiling on incompetence. Tell us, if this kind of terrible housekeeping is par for the course, exactly how badly do you have to f*** things up to get fired?

Parts of the community have been expressing discontent about how badly balance is prioritised. You're hearing it from me, because I am inevitably the first one to say it. If you think the BT is doing a bang up job, good for you, but a lot of people don't. I know it comes as a rude surprise when you realise people disagree with you - so I'm giving you some forewarning so you don't go banning people.

It's hard to judge what the majority of the community think - but a lot of people in my timezones (basically the 12 hour off peak time) think that balance decisions are being made in bad faith, to benefit a few and that you are complicit in it. Personally I think you're all just half-assing this to next sunday. It will be harder to combat the former impression the longer your boot remains outside the balance team's collective asses.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 07 Apr 2014, 15:35


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2014-04-07T12:39:39+02:00 2014-04-07T12:39:39+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70687#p70687 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>
Anaryl wrote:
[...]

When did you all turn into solipsists?

Just because you did not build a plan B does not mean that somebody else did not - the arrogance of assuming one's experience contains all the valid experience is ... well ... staggeringly arrogant. Such individuals should be kept from colouring books, let alone FAF balance.


:o :shock: I am pretty sure I did build a bunch. But at a stage where I had a power output of ~50K / s, so I didn't really notice the huge "windfall" of 200 energy per second saved, lol.

Anaryl wrote:
It's completely reasonable to express no - confidence in a balance team that has created more balance issues than they have solved, are clearly biased towards one faction and clearly biased towards one end of the ladder.


I think I'm pretty sure what end of the ladder you mean, but what faction?

Anaryl wrote:
I would imagine that stealth buffing Cybran, making knowingly misleading calls for buffs when it is well known that cybran units are too strong is that kind of f*** up.


That is well-known? Huh? Basicly all Cybran units are easy to kill... once you spotted them.

Anaryl wrote:
But this isn't kindergarten - not everyone deserves a gold star for participation. If members of the balance team f*** up, they should be fired and forced to account for their incompetence publicly.


And you are Jesus? Never make any mistakes?

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 07 Apr 2014, 12:39


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2014-04-07T09:00:16+02:00 2014-04-07T09:00:16+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70673#p70673 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]> Easier to not screw things that way :)

Still...

Anaryl wrote:
The changes being pushed by the balance team aren't being remit to the community


I'm 100% sure they are.

https://bitbucket.org/thepilot/forged-a ... ommits/all

Even better, each change done is posted automatically on my twitter account, so you can review anything that is done.
So your fault too if you let a incredibly huge bug like this going through.

And if we are in the balance period period, you can even see what units are changed in details here :
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=5681

And as you can read all over that place : The community is more than welcomed to post feedback. As long as it's based on actual games and not feelings.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 07 Apr 2014, 09:00


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2014-04-07T06:03:24+02:00 2014-04-07T06:03:24+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70664#p70664 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]> Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 07 Apr 2014, 06:03


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2014-04-07T05:13:25+02:00 2014-04-07T05:13:25+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70663#p70663 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>

There also seems to be some confusion regarding "screwups". If a screwup:
a) it not noticed until 10 months later
&
b) has negligible effect on the game

Then that "screwup" is pretty acceptable.

For one: 200 power is usually nothing when one has a power park of ~30.000 /s. I like the effort that was put into this, and now it's gonna be even better. Enjoy!



^[In support of this post]

Yea, it's not like we aren't fixing bugs that have been in the game since day one still.

Do people not realize it's literally impossible to keep this (or any) game bug free no matter how long you test it. All it takes is one fresh set of eyes to find a bug no one else would have been able to spot.

Seriously, I haven't built one of those guys in ages. (Not that you can actually play balance patch games during the balance periods... no one host'em and they don't fill.)


When did you all turn into solipsists?

Just because you did not build a plan B does not mean that somebody else did not - the arrogance of assuming one's experience contains all the valid experience is ... well ... staggeringly arrogant. Such individuals should be kept from colouring books, let alone FAF balance.

This isn't one tiny screwup - its one of may tiny screwups that demonstrate how flawed the process is - and how flawed the team is. This isn't new, and just because this isn't a major fuckup doesn't mean that there haven't been or that there won't be. The only place this change shows is in an out of the way balance forum. The changes being pushed by the balance team aren't being remit to the community - and these changes are clearly biased. Arguing that this is the first time is bullshit - this has been happening for months. The only reason this hasn't been caught is because these people lie to cover their own ineptness.

It's completely reasonable to express no - confidence in a balance team that has created more balance issues than they have solved, are clearly biased towards one faction and clearly biased towards one end of the ladder. Where is the line where somebody can reasonably say "These people are doing an absolutely shit job and should be removed?" - there is not a mechanism for this - because it is believed that they can't fail that badly. How badly do these people have to suck before FAF will admit that "these people suck" - at what point is there a fuckup too momentous even for the FAF admins, that they can say "Yes in that case we would remove their privileges"? Can FAF admins/Zep even tell us if such a line exists? In other words, what kind of fuckup is too big even for FAF? I would imagine that stealth buffing Cybran, making knowingly misleading calls for buffs when it is well known that cybran units are too strong is that kind of f*** up. But if it isn't - what is? Tell us o'FAF where is the line, that these people would be too incompetent even for you? We are talking about a coder who could not implement a stealth drain correctly.


But this isn't kindergarten - not everyone deserves a gold star for participation. If members of the balance team f*** up, they should be fired and forced to account for their incompetence publicly.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 07 Apr 2014, 05:13


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2014-04-07T00:45:57+02:00 2014-04-07T00:45:57+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70649#p70649 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>
Anaryl wrote:
Pip apparently.

There seems to be some confusion regarding balance effectiveness here: If your change
a) fails to make appreciable changes to unit usage or meta
&
b) causes bugs due to shitty implementation

then

c: It is a shit change.

Why was effort on this ever expended? Continually it is said that balance needs to focus solely on real and pressing issues. Yet we have this giant mission creep of a patch that is propagating more and more bugs into the game, with more and more changes that were not pressing in 3610. I'm sorry but where is the benchmark for "screwups" here?


There also seems to be some confusion regarding "screwups". If a screwup:
a) it not noticed until 10 months later
&
b) has negligible effect on the game

Then that "screwup" is pretty acceptable.

For one: 200 power is usually nothing when one has a power park of ~30.000 /s. I like the effort that was put into this, and now it's gonna be even better. Enjoy!

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 07 Apr 2014, 00:45


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2014-04-07T00:12:19+02:00 2014-04-07T00:12:19+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70648#p70648 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]> Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 07 Apr 2014, 00:12


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2014-04-07T00:08:44+02:00 2014-04-07T00:08:44+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=7162&p=70647#p70647 <![CDATA[Re: Bug report]]>
Yea, it's not like we aren't fixing bugs that have been in the game since day one still.

Do people not realize it's literally impossible to keep this (or any) game bug free no matter how long you test it. All it takes is one fresh set of eyes to find a bug no one else would have been able to spot.

Seriously, I haven't built one of those guys in ages. (Not that you can actually play balance patch games during the balance periods... no one host'em and they don't fill.)

Statistics: Posted by errorblankfield — 07 Apr 2014, 00:08


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