Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-06T09:45:29+02:00

Just want to add a thought that came to my mind. It's not really about experimentals only. By giving intel of places that actually have not been detected yet the player also gets a few seconds were he even could TML units that actually are hidden and not detectable on radar. And this just feels weird to kinda wrong (havn't tested it yet though).
I am done with this topic as well. The "problem"/current situaion has been pointed out and that's ok. I do not know for sure whether a change would make it all better or worse. Up to the testers now, I guess (if they want to test a change). So long

Statistics: Posted by --- — 06 Apr 2014, 09:45

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-06T02:20:16+02:00

Ok, I don't have a problem if the scouts were slightly nerfed. (this should be decided by good players though).
In your case, the fatty was too close to get by, undetected either by 1 or 2 or 5 spies , by the pink player or his allies. It's not like the yellow player had so much anti air, but for so big an investment his airforce should help killing the spies, earlier. Besides the yellow could have put his stealth and fatty only a little behind, if he wanted to use his air force and have no losses from enemy anti-air. I am not saying he should build the fatboy at the back player, no, just back enough so the air can defend without many losses. Since he's made the mistake to put the stealth so forward he should accept his mistake and even sacrifice his airforce. It was useless anyway, There were shields and under them antiair. Enough to protect the fatboy from bombing for sometime. So the role of the air was just intelligence at this time, either to see if a bombing is prepped, or to deny intelligence, even if they get killed.
So, should the spies be nerfed? Nerf them, no problem but they should be able to give more info than the area they covered before they get shot down, otherwise there are situations that a player could build minimal amount of defenses and not be detectable, giving him time to peacefully defend against spying or offensive attempts, while building his gear.
"i could have built 20 t3 aa and still that would't have helped."
This has to be tested; additionally is the scout t3 or t1?(you had far less than 20 t3 anti air)
So, the range of the spy could be decreased as long as it didn't give the opponent the chance to hide quietly behind stationary defenses..You want counter intelligence? You have to work for it,
I am saying you are partly right, but that we have to be very careful before changing sth so important as the spying mechanics; still having the opinion that spies should see more than they travel, no matter how many are required to do the job

"

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 06 Apr 2014, 02:20

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-06T01:06:20+02:00

sigh

this is the last time i am going to point out the issue: it is not about being invisible. i don't know why you refuse to understand my thoughts. every base should be scoutable. every base is scoutable. that's what scouts are for. it works.

the problem: scouts that don't even come close to my base get not only full intel but they also reveal what kind of units there are. the fact that it breaks a stealth gen makes the idea of stealth useless. stealth doesn't depend on map size. stealth depends on "not being seen".

"You should always be able to scout me and only a huge amount of useless mass put into stationary defense should be able to hold you temporarily, only to be overcome by more scouts."
=> right you are. but you miss the point again as i have pointed out several times that no matter how much stationary aa you have a t1 scout is going to get the intel. i could have built 20 t3 aa and still that would't have helped.

Statistics: Posted by Shai-Hulud — 06 Apr 2014, 01:06

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-06T00:51:34+02:00

prodromos wrote:
I am sure, that knowledgeable players will know what happens if you change the scout mechanics. And no, it doesn't matter if it makes sense or not.If it were this way, tanks would have to stop once in a while to refuel and pds would stop working untill fully charged.
I very much like the idea of stealth, but I am sorry if I can't understand your example with the Seton's match. To build a stealth base so close to your opponent, means that you completely disrespect him. No, stealth is not meant for these pseudo strategies, even if I lost to such strategies when sleeping or distracted. You cannot expect that the enemy will not scout you, in a 5 meters radius; if he does not you should rage quit or something.If you do, you just confirm my sad realisation that a vast majority of players don't scout or consider scouting a biiig investment, lol. I won most of my matches to players that sit like a duck in their "epic" firebases building "secretly" their uber weapon. And I lost most of my matches due to a stupid lack of scouting.
I have news for you, stealth and immobility don't match. Stealth may be useful even at t3 stage. If you are moving to a large enough area with stealth you can cause big damage to your opponent who will have to have constant vision in order to survive. A loss of 10 less units or a delayed intelligence may very well win you the game. The kind of stealth you are referring to, might be plausible only on huge 40x40 or 81x81 maps, where quick scanning of all the map is problematic and distraction strategies might work more easily.
But any honest player will admit that these maps are unplayable either due to computer or human factors.
To answer your question, I don't know if changing the scout would work positively or not, I don't know the numbers, but I know you should never be undetectable one breadth away from me to build your exp; and this goes both ways. You should always be able to scout me and only a huge amount of useless mass put into stationary defense should be able to hold you temporarily, only to be overcome by more scouts.
Once, an opponent said:"Stop doing that, it's annoying!" , I was scouting his terrain from all sides, not by typical scout spam but by manually giving orders to spy planes every 30-60 seconds.
Then he started spamming air scouts by setting his air factory on auto. He asked:"how do you feel now that I use your strategy?". I replied: "normal?".
He either had the nerve to demand that I sit like an idiot not spying on him, or he had the illusion that by building an "epic firebase" and "hiding" an epic artillery or experimental is the mother of all strategies, and I was annoying to him, lol.

+1 to this guy

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 06 Apr 2014, 00:51

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-06T00:37:16+02:00

I am sure, that knowledgeable players will know what happens if you change the scout mechanics. And no, it doesn't matter if it makes sense or not.If it were this way, tanks would have to stop once in a while to refuel and pds would stop working untill fully charged.
I very much like the idea of stealth, but I am sorry if I can't understand your example with the Seton's match. To build a stealth base so close to your opponent, means that you completely disrespect him. No, stealth is not meant for these pseudo strategies, even if I lost to such strategies when sleeping or distracted. You cannot expect that the enemy will not scout you, in a 5 meters radius; if he does not you should rage quit or something.If you do, you just confirm my sad realisation that a vast majority of players don't scout or consider scouting a biiig investment, lol. I won most of my matches to players that sit like a duck in their "epic" firebases building "secretly" their uber weapon. And I lost most of my matches due to a stupid lack of scouting.
I have news for you, stealth and immobility don't match. Stealth may be useful even at t3 stage. If you are moving to a large enough area with stealth you can cause big damage to your opponent who will have to have constant vision in order to survive. A loss of 10 less units or a delayed intelligence may very well win you the game. The kind of stealth you are referring to, might be plausible only on huge 40x40 or 81x81 maps, where quick scanning of all the map is problematic and distraction strategies might work more easily.
But any honest player will admit that these maps are unplayable either due to computer or human factors.
To answer your question, I don't know if changing the scout would work positively or not, I don't know the numbers, but I know you should never be undetectable one breadth away from me to build your exp; and this goes both ways. You should always be able to scout me and only a huge amount of useless mass put into stationary defense should be able to hold you temporarily, only to be overcome by more scouts.
Once, an opponent said:"Stop doing that, it's annoying!" , I was scouting his terrain from all sides, not by typical scout spam but by manually giving orders to spy planes every 30-60 seconds.
Then he started spamming air scouts by setting his air factory on auto. He asked:"how do you feel now that I use your strategy?". I replied: "normal?".
He either had the nerve to demand that I sit like an idiot not spying on him, or he had the illusion that by building an "epic firebase" and "hiding" an epic artillery or experimental is the mother of all strategies, and I was annoying to him, lol.

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 06 Apr 2014, 00:37

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-06T00:19:47+02:00

i think t1 air scout could get slight nerf, just compare it to 3599 scout... it used to cost more, had no radar, no sonar, and maybe did not even fly that fast...
but i am ok with all that is right now

also i am sure that sera scouts give 10 or 20 sec of vision in area where they died, and it is intentional to make variaty compared to other scouts

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 06 Apr 2014, 00:19

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-05T21:03:15+02:00

well the matter is that we lack already of scouting (i mean i don't scout enough, and i know weaker player than me doesn't too).

we can do like you want, it will add a little to gameplay. But as I said, we have severe matter with scouting, don't need that much a nerf.

in the seton exemple, you can still scout spam (with a nerf T1 scout like you want) with a different rally point order from the air factory, that's why I said this wasn't a good exemple.
btw it depends of the type of game you play but in 1v1, i feel like scouting require lot of micro (changing build order in factory, set up multiple scout path, look at what your scout allow you to see) that's why it's under use.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 05 Apr 2014, 21:03

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-05T20:44:09+02:00

"I feel like your seton exemple is bad. You can't really complain. because if T1 scout wasn't that strong, your opponent could still scout your fatty, with a scout coming from the side."
Exactly. Scouts still would be useful but you couldnt just scout spam through the mid aa but would need to find a weak spot in the defence (intis around would make it even harder).

Spamming stealth front would result in same situation. Scout spam will constantly show what is going on in your base (including if shields are on/off).

"imo, you have to deal with it. i don't think a fix is necessary. if you want to hide something (like the fatty), just put few intie out of opponent aa (btw intie = 50 mass, and T1 scout = 40 mass; so it isn't a big deal to lose an intie), and obviously build your fatty a little further back."
In the example given I am not sure that would work. Intercepting the Scout before he it can see your base when dropping will most likely result in your Intis getting shot down every time (notice that Intis need time and space to turn around - not sure there is any angle here he could come in and leave without getting under aa fire). 1 Scout vs 1 Inti may not be a big deal but spam scouting is a different story as not only mass and e for production of scouts and Intis differ but also build time itself.

To clarify: I do not say the current situation is a catastrophe. I just wonder if it could be even better by emphasizing the need for clever scouting and strengthening stealthy gameplay.

Statistics: Posted by --- — 05 Apr 2014, 20:44

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-05T20:08:17+02:00

first thing to be said is that T1 scout is overpower, everyone know it (fly over flak :s ).
lots of player abusing it (as i'm). By building one air facto and constantly spamming T1 scout.
as a cybran player, the fact that a spam of T1 scout > stealth is dumb. it make stealth boat likely useless. but tbh, there is no other option to counter our mobile steath. (T3 radar work, but it cost much more).

I feel like your seton exemple is bad. You can't really complain. because if T1 scout wasn't that strong, your opponent could still scout your fatty, with a scout coming from the side.

at the moment stealth are use in base to lower the efficiency of T3 radar. (you can't see the unit). And (as LuXy said) there should be way more player spaming stealth in there base.
mobile stealth are still usefull for drops.

=> T1 scout really good, mobile stealth sucks because of T1 scout but is still usefull, stealth generator vs omni. T3 scout are still usefull to scout well protected base (with forward aa def) when T1 scout is useless (lategame).

imo, you have to deal with it. i don't think a fix is necessary. if you want to hide something (like the fatty), just put few intie out of opponent aa (btw intie = 50 mass, and T1 scout = 40 mass; so it isn't a big deal to lose an intie), and obviously build your fatty a little further back.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 05 Apr 2014, 20:08

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-05T17:39:26+02:00

1. But that is exactly the problem. Look at the pics: how could he have stopped the scout with intis? The bases are so close, engaging the scout with intis would bear the risk of losing those intis to aa - a rather costly defense.
Simple scenario: Aeon player defends against UEF and is building a lot of pd2. Then he scouts and sees, despite the stealth gen and the scout being shot down in front (!) of the opponent's base, that he is about to challenge a FB. Reaction: immediate switch to arty. Result: stealth gen for this purpose was a waste of mass/energy and the Aeon player adjusts tacs.
In general, a stealthy way of playing is not really possible imho. A few scouts get to see everything despite aa. The effort required for intel seems very little.

2. That may be a problem. Thus, why not have shown on radar (grey icon) the units that shot it down instead of everything in the scouts way to the ground? Also, thats why a radar is so important because radar would show those units (grey icon at first). Are there standard ships with radar?

Statistics: Posted by --- — 05 Apr 2014, 17:39

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-05T16:12:53+02:00

stealth has 2 different roles
1. strategically so opponent cannot rely on what you are doing just by using radar usefull for making stuff at home (nukelauncher,ripper,arty), drops, overpowering him by surprise (for example using a better asf angle or just surprise him with more units) - against this the current scout planes are not really changing anything - they effectively have a little more range but you can still stop them with interceptors and a t2 radar

2. beeing used directly in a fight where your opponent knows what you have but cannot hit you because range > vision radius this is of course a use that is arguably stronger because your opponent will have trouble fighting you even when he correctly anticipated your strategy.
for naval cybran has the most range on their destroyers and it is very hard to use torpedos or gunships against them
so you need your ships to hit them in the ongoing fights without going completely allin (getting frigates in vision radius for example)
this specific situation is where the current scouts are needed if they stopped providing intel when shot down you could prevent your naval from beeing scouted with interceptors and your opponent would not be able to fight back with his destroyers at all

Statistics: Posted by Lame — 05 Apr 2014, 16:12

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-05T15:26:46+02:00

@lame
That's not true. Send a group of scout planes and they will get the intel. if you can't scout the enemy base because he has enough aa - well then the opponent did a fine job. that's what aa is there for, isn't it? send about 10 or 20 scouts - they will get the intel. but 1 scout uncovering the whole base no matter how much aa there is around just doesn't make any sense.

The discussion is moving into the wrong direction. Instead of talking about a wreckage that breaks stealth 100% people focus on scouts being too weak otherwise. Take my game as an example: he could have scouted me easily by sending the scouts around my base. that would have been totally legit but there was no need for such hassle. spam beats brain it seems.

I am surprised that many people here don't mind a dead scout destroying the idea of stealth. personally i think once a unit has been destroyed there should no longer be any kind of intel/visibility transmitted.

Statistics: Posted by Shai-Hulud — 05 Apr 2014, 15:26

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-05T15:18:23+02:00

But thats not the idea of stealth, is it? Stealth means it is hidden unless omni breaks it or a unit is within the stealth radius. Can't see a temporal dimension here.
Just had another look at scouts being shot down. Have u noticed that the scout gives intel when being falling down but the field of view of the scout disappears? The fog of war prevents sight but still secret units pop up. Looks odd and inconsistent imho.
I think yu still could scout navy -> spy plane.
Is it ok that a t1 unit (scout) can break t2 units (navy)?

Statistics: Posted by --- — 05 Apr 2014, 15:18

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-05T14:56:31+02:00

Blackster wrote:
Uhm, and what extactly has the build time to do with stealth? o.0

if your stuff builds faster opponent has less time to react?

if you remove ability from scouts to give intel for some time after they are dead it will become impossible to scout enemy stealth navy (75 range cruisers)

Statistics: Posted by Lame — 05 Apr 2014, 14:56

Re: Scouts bugged?

2014-04-05T14:42:36+02:00

I really don't understand why some people are so rigidly clinging to the current scout situation.
With the change everything would stay the same with one difference: scouts only show what they, well, have scouted (sorry, but a burning and falling wreck simply cannot scout).
Uhm, and what extactly has the build time to do with stealth? o.0
Even after the change a scout could scout most of the base - but you would have to find a less defended way (back/side of the base). And if it won't work, well get a t3 spy plane then.
Also one point was mentioned that so far no one has commented on: when the scout gives intel after being shot: why does it not only show a grey square (indicating that here is an unknown unit) but it show the units itself.
I havn't checked it but ZLO mentioned that the Sera scout even gives for 20 s a view on the place where it died. Like, ... why... how...

I do not know if a change (if possible) would make the game better/more interesting. I just don't like all the "leave it how it is!" comments without really having a look at the pros and cons.

Statistics: Posted by --- — 05 Apr 2014, 14:42