Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-04T13:09:17+02:00

Blackster wrote:
To emphasize a point that seems to remain rather unnoticed:
Where do people spam t3 units (if at all)? Usually towards the front, yes? I think we can agree on that.
The SACU however can be dropped everwhere rather quickly (UEF t3 transport). Sure, air can prevent it, but in general the SACU are way more versitile and flexible. Good luck "dropping" a t4 behind enemy lines. Thus, I still consider the Rambo version rather cheap.

Usually the biggest share of T3 units is air

T3 bots can be dropped just as well as SACU's. I just had a setons game last night where enemy front ferried in percies from his factories that were in his main base. As for dropping: if you can drop 'm behind enemy lines their air cover must be very lousy.

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 04 Apr 2014, 13:09

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-04T13:03:43+02:00

To emphasize a point that seems to remain rather unnoticed:
Where do people spam t3 units (if at all)? Usually towards the front, yes? I think we can agree on that.
The SACU however can be dropped everwhere rather quickly (UEF t3 transport). Sure, air can prevent it, but in general the SACU are way more versitile and flexible. Good luck "dropping" a t4 behind enemy lines. Thus, I still consider the Rambo version rather cheap.

Statistics: Posted by --- — 04 Apr 2014, 13:03

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-04T12:55:06+02:00

Energy costs may be high, but when you have a few SCUs in the upgrading process, this is manageable. When you have a lot of them around, you can easily pump out additional T3 Pgens.

However, SCUs are slower in production than experimentals and so I wonder about the difference between SCUs and T3 bots. Is the minimum build power to pump out T3 bots the same as the minimum build power to spam SCUs? The second question is, will the same mass cost in T3 bots easily kill these SCUs? If so, then there is your counter to SCU spam.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 04 Apr 2014, 12:55

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-04T10:57:57+02:00

Blackster wrote:
Reasons:
- less mass
- less energy
- can defend against anything (navy: spam up arty/pd3/torps; air: spam up shields/sams; land: spam up shields/pd/direct fire)
- can reclaim
- can face t4
- flexible when it comes to transportation (--> t3 shielded UEF tansports...)

SCUs actually cost a lot of energy for their upgrades.

And even though they are quite good against experimental, they might have problems with such things as persivals: if you don't micro you lose; if you do micro, you win. In SCUs vs T3, it's all about how SCUs are used. If i have this situation, I build some walls with gaps and kill T3 one by one.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 04 Apr 2014, 10:57

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-04T09:32:34+02:00

Ok, thx for claryficiation guys. Good points you made.
However, I still feel (emotion...) the R.SACU should be maybe 10-12k mass. The lesson I learned from this is: in late game, when build power isn't really an issue I will go mass SACU and no t4 anymore. Even the guy who shredded my GC with those 4 R.SACU said they simply would be too cheap (and he had more on the way).

Reasons:
- less mass
- less energy
- can defend against anything (navy: spam up arty/pd3/torps; air: spam up shields/sams; land: spam up shields/pd/direct fire)
- can reclaim
- can face t4
- flexible when it comes to transportation (--> t3 shielded UEF tansports...)

I will try it for some time and hope I will be proven wrong and t4 land units are still vaiable for I think they should be way more powerful then any SACU.
For the notion that most t3 units can face t4 when in equal mass size: 4 SACU are not equal to 1 GC! Its 24k vs. 27.5k mass! That's a discount of about 10 %. And let's not forget: at least 3 R.SACU survie a duel (and get free mass) - at least two of them unharmed. Not a single scratch.

Statistics: Posted by --- — 04 Apr 2014, 09:32

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-04T08:45:32+02:00

SCUs vs GC: Most of the T3 units win experimentals mass by mass and SCUs aren't exeption. I actually even tested this with titans and those won, i think even obsidians would do that, if GC would have a worse veterancy. But anyway, to get those 57 titans from one factory, you need ~25 minutes; GC gets built by a single T3 engineer in 8 minutes...

About RAS preset: Using adjacency bonus you might get like 80% bonus with t3 fabricators, which makes producing RAS SCUs insanely efficient even with such a big build time. Even 15% bonus from t2 fabs(2500 mass total) is already a lot. The bonus from fabricators exists even when fabs are turned off and even if that would be fixed, nothing can keep people from turning those on when you start a unit building, and turning fabs off again fo the rest of time. It might also provoce appearing of maps with unfair adjacency(8 T3 mex = free SCUs).

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 04 Apr 2014, 08:45

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-04T06:48:39+02:00

Blackster wrote:
Ok, I just had another situation where 4 Rambo SACU easily won over 1 GC (not sure I even got one of the SACU). Of course, the SACU reclaimed the GC wreck right away. Even if they were about to die: by reclaiming they make up for their loss before dying.

Hope someone can explain to me how this is ok:

Rambo (urgh, that dumb name...) SACU:
- 6k mass
- 140k energy
- shield (regen)
- ability to build
- ability to reclaim
- can be put on a transporter (flexible/fast transport)

GC:
- 27,5k mass
- 350k energy
- no shield (slow regen)
- no ability to build
- no ability to reclaim
- can't be put on a transporter (no flexible/fast transport)

Yes, you can easily bomb the SACU. But so can u with a GC - only that the SACU can spam up shields, which the GC can't.
I knwo the UEF do not have a direct fire (high alpha damage) t4. However, they have the percies. Is the R. SACU not waaaaay to cheap? (not familiar with other faction's SACU). Hell, a GC is more than 4 x the mass for 1 R. SACU and has all those mentioened disadvantages compared to the R. SACU.
Aaaaand, sure, I can get some SACU on my own, but would'nt that ultimately result in mass SACU and no land t4?

the difference your looking for is in how fast these can be made. Assuming equal build power 1 GC can be made before you get even 1 Rambo Sacu out. Not to mention that to build GC requires just t3 engy while Rambo Sacu requires Quantum Gateway.

T3 ACU has 126 BP and can build a GC in 2 min. 43 seconds

Quantum Gateway has 120 BP and can build Rambo Sacu in 4 min. 8 seconds

Statistics: Posted by Reaper Zwei — 04 Apr 2014, 06:48

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-03T23:47:28+02:00

Ok, I just had another situation where 4 Rambo SACU easily won over 1 GC (not sure I even got one of the SACU). Of course, the SACU reclaimed the GC wreck right away. Even if they were about to die: by reclaiming they make up for their loss before dying.

Hope someone can explain to me how this is ok:

Rambo (urgh, that dumb name...) SACU:
- 6k mass
- 140k energy
- shield (regen)
- ability to build
- ability to reclaim
- can be put on a transporter (flexible/fast transport)

GC:
- 27,5k mass
- 350k energy
- no shield (slow regen)
- no ability to build
- no ability to reclaim
- can't be put on a transporter (no flexible/fast transport)

Yes, you can easily bomb the SACU. But so can u with a GC - only that the SACU can spam up shields, which the GC can't.
I knwo the UEF do not have a direct fire (high alpha damage) t4. However, they have the percies. Is the R. SACU not waaaaay to cheap? (not familiar with other faction's SACU). Hell, a GC is more than 4 x the mass for 1 R. SACU and has all those mentioened disadvantages compared to the R. SACU.
Aaaaand, sure, I can get some SACU on my own, but would'nt that ultimately result in mass SACU and no land t4?

Statistics: Posted by --- — 03 Apr 2014, 23:47

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-03T18:26:05+02:00

1 shield + 16 massfabs + 1 Pgens = 18 units. All you get for that is 16 mass, or 1.1250 units for 1 mass per second. With RAS SCU's that's 1 unit for 11 mass, or 0.0909 units for 1 mass per second.

Some games I have ~25 SCU's. To replace their income with T2 massfabs... you need 310 units. Yeah, good luck with that. Not to mention the real estate it takes.

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 03 Apr 2014, 18:26

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-03T18:15:43+02:00

the difference being that when mass spots run out, you are forced to build t3 mexes so they are used, and it makes sense for them to be less efficient, but with t3 massfabs, they are less efficient, and so you never need to build them, only if you want to keep your eco safer, in which case a shield + 16 massfabs + t3 pgen would be a cheaper combo

or just use scus with ras.

this means there isn't a reason to build t3 massfabs because there's always a better alternative.
so, they suck.

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 03 Apr 2014, 18:15

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-03T18:11:27+02:00

Iszh wrote:
It is not really possible to get them cheaper because Quantum gate was not included in engi patch. It has so low built power that it uses not enough mass. Any adjacency building next to it would be completely a waste. The problem is the building size of quantum gate. One mex t3 would hardly save 1 mass. A mass storage next to it brings 3. Same for t3 mass fabs.

Btw the energy use of t3 mass fabs is ridiculous. Even with adjacency they are times worse then t2 mass fabs, why this was never patched?

quantum gates have decent buildpower when building preset scus i think you can reach up to -33 depending on what you build
thats more than a t3 landfactory so its pretty much the most adjacency you can get for your t2 fabs other than storage or stratbombers

Statistics: Posted by Lame — 03 Apr 2014, 18:11

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-03T18:08:09+02:00

Iszh wrote:
Btw the energy use of t3 mass fabs is ridiculous. Even with adjacency they are times worse then t2 mass fabs, why this was never patched?

Because it's actually very balanced. By the time you get to T3 you have the easy way of building T3Pgens and T3 Mass fabs. With a nice group of engineers they can be spammed if you have the resources. The energy requirement of the T3 mass fab is made this high to ensure that you need one T3 Pgen for one T3 mass fab. If you would make it lower, you can at some point start spamming T3 mass fabs without having to build additional PGens. That was the problem with the original supcom.

Also: the mass cost to build them has a similar thing. The mass cost per mass/s generated for a T2 fab is 100, for the T3 fab it is 250. This is not much different from the thing with the extractors, where it is 150m per mass/s generated for the T2 mex and 255m per mass/s generated (These two figures are when building from scratch, so when you upgrade a mass extractor from T2 to T3, it's even worse: 4600 mass for 12 additional mass/s generated means that you're at 383m per mass/s generated)

So it's not that illogical to have the higher tech things be less efficient. It's not unlike how the DPS/mass values work with the units.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 03 Apr 2014, 18:08

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-03T17:23:39+02:00

Iszh wrote:
It is not really possible to get them cheaper because Quantum gate was not included in engi patch. It has so low built power that it uses not enough mass. Any adjacency building next to it would be completely a waste. The problem is the building size of quantum gate. One mex t3 would hardly save 1 mass. A mass storage next to it brings 3. Same for t3 mass fabs.

Btw the energy use of t3 mass fabs is ridiculous. Even with adjacency they are times worse then t2 mass fabs, why this was never patched?

I guess with RAS SACUs straight fromt he quantum gate, the buildpower of the Quantum gate would be added to the buildpower of the SCU. Mass usage would then be quite a lot higher.

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 03 Apr 2014, 17:23

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-03T15:10:10+02:00

Thanks Gorton, didn't know that.
Anyway, the name... even Iron Man SACU would make more sense
-> viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7032&start=50 (see bottom)

Statistics: Posted by --- — 03 Apr 2014, 15:10

Re: Rambo SACU (UEF) - name

2014-04-03T14:21:38+02:00

It is not really possible to get them cheaper because Quantum gate was not included in engi patch. It has so low built power that it uses not enough mass. Any adjacency building next to it would be completely a waste. The problem is the building size of quantum gate. One mex t3 would hardly save 1 mass. A mass storage next to it brings 3. Same for t3 mass fabs.

Btw the energy use of t3 mass fabs is ridiculous. Even with adjacency they are times worse then t2 mass fabs, why this was never patched?

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 03 Apr 2014, 14:21