Forged Alliance Forever

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-28T02:40:16+02:00

haha this thread

"The art of raiding" on Rohan..
goes at the same level as the gunup/rangebot discussion

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 28 Mar 2014, 02:40

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-28T01:26:28+02:00

To be honest I think we cannot progress in this thread simply because advice that good players can give just doesn't matter to this level of play and bad map design

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 28 Mar 2014, 01:26

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-27T22:44:41+02:00

If they are playing halfway properly the side players can always use the mass overflowed by front players.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 27 Mar 2014, 22:44

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-27T16:39:44+02:00

Vee wrote:
It's not worth it because you overflow the mass to your teammates. So unless you think you have noob team mates who will not use the mass appropriately, it's a very bad idea.

Well everyone is reclaiming and overflowing at the same time. Having just one player on the team who built a storage unit means that none of your teams reclaim will be wasted. Also considering that it is next to one of the mexes being upgraded to T2. There will be some additional income generated because of it.

Advancing one M.store in the build sequence is economically sub-optimal. But the opportunity created from zero wastage will balance this out. It is a more effective use of build power. Rather than building the pgens which would otherwise be needed. It also allows for mex upgrades to be assisted and done in series, rather than parallel.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 27 Mar 2014, 16:39

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-25T12:21:41+02:00

It's not worth it because you overflow the mass to your teammates. So unless you think you have noob team mates who will not use the mass appropriately, it's a very bad idea.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 25 Mar 2014, 12:21

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-25T08:02:49+02:00

That's an interesting point. Is the mass storage really worth it? Anyone else care to chime in?

My raiding is usually just a scout and 2 labs over the hill. Kill as many engies as I can and run away to the next base. Try not to waste much time on them. More serve as a distraction to the enemy provided they get a couple of expanding engies they have been worth their cost anyway.

Statistics: Posted by SomeoneAUS — 25 Mar 2014, 08:02

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-25T03:22:37+02:00

Herbert wrote:
What build order do you use for three labs?

I dont send them up against tanks as thats just suicide. I just use them for hitting mexes and engies. I send multiple waves until their effectiveness is lost.

The auroras are slow, its easy to run away and save the labs.

My BO can be any land first opening. But usually 2nd land fac or 3 land fac. For side position I will typically do a 2nd air start.

Which is: Lfac >> 2 Pgen >> 3 mex >> 1 Pgen >> 1 Mex >> Hydro >> M.storage >> Afac >> 2 Mex >> 14 Pgen >> Afac...
Lfac build: 3 Engies >> 3 LAB >> 1 Scout >> 2 Engies >> 3 LAB >> 1 Scout >> 2 Engies >> 2 Tanks >> 2 Engies >> 2 Tanks >> 2 AA >> 20 Engies >> T2 Upgrade >> 2 T2 Combat Engies >> 10 T2 Engies.
Afac build: 4 Air Scouts >> 20 Interceptors >> T2 Upgrade >> 2 T2 Engies >> 10 Fighter Bomber (continuous loop)

You should note that I include an early mass storage in my BO. This is particular to GoR. The mass boost is so sharp and sudden that there is insufficient power or build capacity to consume it. The mass storage is expensive, but it eliminates wastage.

As for LAB vs Tank. I use the UEF Mech Marine, which is a little more hardy. With my micro skills I would be confident taking out a tank with two LAB's and have occasionally done it with one LAB. With 3 LAB's I would have no trouble taking out an escorting tank without it being able to land any shots. During a raid I would expect to kill 2 tanks, 3 engineers and two mexes, plus any AA or scouts which may be there. I could halt expansion progress even against a prepared opponent. On rare occasions I have had LAB's with 12 kills... When LAB's get veterancy, on big maps, and stay alive they can be a royal pain in the arse.

From the perspective of the LAB. The Aurora is basically a sniper. It can kill with 1 or 2 shots BVR. With no need for micro. The only way to kill an Aurora with LAB is with a Terrain ambush manoeuvre.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 25 Mar 2014, 03:22

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-24T20:14:36+02:00

Flipper wrote:
It's a lot of fun on Gap to play UEF and make a drone 1st thing. You can make much mischief because most assume they've got lots of time to waste. I usually grab all the mass and have even built a land fac between 2 enemy starting points before. The WTF comments you get are priceless...

Does this count as early raiding?

Do you know which one of your replays I need to watch?

Statistics: Posted by Herbert — 24 Mar 2014, 20:14

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-24T20:07:49+02:00

I usually get a aa with me when I go middle (if there is a UEF in the other team).
it's funny to see the drone being snipe without getting any mass, then the player is most likelly useless for 10 min.

I really feel like it's idiot to be ashame playing GoR. Not the best map, but it allow you get get into the late game easily, and moreover you can be surprise (or surprise the other player) with some funky tactics.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 24 Mar 2014, 20:07

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-24T18:51:06+02:00

It's a lot of fun on Gap to play UEF and make a drone 1st thing. You can make much mischief because most assume they've got lots of time to waste. I usually grab all the mass and have even built a land fac between 2 enemy starting points before. The WTF comments you get are priceless...

Does this count as early raiding?

Statistics: Posted by Flipper — 24 Mar 2014, 18:51

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-24T15:53:47+02:00

Hawkei wrote:
Your timing seems reasonable... I would tend to make my parties with 3 LAB's, not 2. 3 LAB's is a much more capable number and when properly controlled can take out the first tanks as well as the engineers. I would follow it up with a second group of LAB's and then stop entirely after that...

It can only be done under the right conditions and only if you are good with your micro. Essentially, if you should aim to take out a tank, with 3 LAB's, without loosing any. If you can't do this then your micro isn't upto the task. You should stick with Mantis.

Also, the decision on which unit to use for raiding depends on what faction your opponent is playing. Aurora, are exceptionally good at killing LAB's. So if your opponent is Aeon, don't use LAB's, use the Jester and the Mantis. If your opponent is UEF, then I would suggest Mantis. The striker has a good turn rate and rate of fire. It is the next best LAB killer. If your opponent is Cybran or Seraphim the LAB can do some real damage. Both the Mantis and Thaam will have difficulty stopping you.

What build order do you use for three labs?

I dont send them up against tanks as thats just suicide. I just use them for hitting mexes and engies. I send multiple waves until their effectiveness is lost.

The auroras are slow, its easy to run away and save the labs.

Statistics: Posted by Herbert — 24 Mar 2014, 15:53

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-24T15:49:03+02:00

Blodir wrote:
I remember doing first lab a couple of times with over 5 kills on it both times, completely paying off. This works only because opponent isn't prepared for it though. In Gap of Rohan it is hard to be prepared for something like this though, because it is very easy to overreact your defense since its very hard to use it offensively afterwards. Also seen some early bomber, drop and even ghetto gunship plays that have worked out, because opponent team has worked together while other team has only eco'd.

Don't ask why I have multiple games on Gap..... Sometimes there's no other games available

Yeah, a lot are unprepared for early labs coming across the mountain. The tactic relies on them making a fac and sending their acu to the middle to be effective. Most of them do though.

I've been early bombered but its easy to deal with and recover. I've been double ghetto'd too and that was nasty.

Statistics: Posted by Herbert — 24 Mar 2014, 15:49

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-24T12:47:17+02:00

Your timing seems reasonable... I would tend to make my parties with 3 LAB's, not 2. 3 LAB's is a much more capable number and when properly controlled can take out the first tanks as well as the engineers. I would follow it up with a second group of LAB's and then stop entirely after that...

It can only be done under the right conditions and only if you are good with your micro. Essentially, if you should aim to take out a tank, with 3 LAB's, without loosing any. If you can't do this then your micro isn't upto the task. You should stick with Mantis.

Also, the decision on which unit to use for raiding depends on what faction your opponent is playing. Aurora, are exceptionally good at killing LAB's. So if your opponent is Aeon, don't use LAB's, use the Jester and the Mantis. If your opponent is UEF, then I would suggest Mantis. The striker has a good turn rate and rate of fire. It is the next best LAB killer. If your opponent is Cybran or Seraphim the LAB can do some real damage. Both the Mantis and Thaam will have difficulty stopping you.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 24 Mar 2014, 12:47

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-24T11:57:31+02:00

I remember doing first lab a couple of times with over 5 kills on it both times, completely paying off. This works only because opponent isn't prepared for it though. In Gap of Rohan it is hard to be prepared for something like this though, because it is very easy to overreact your defense since its very hard to use it offensively afterwards. Also seen some early bomber, drop and even ghetto gunship plays that have worked out, because opponent team has worked together while other team has only eco'd.

Don't ask why I have multiple games on Gap..... Sometimes there's no other games available

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 24 Mar 2014, 11:57

Re: The art of raiding

2014-03-24T01:42:35+02:00

The only good thing that you will able to do with 2 labs + scout is to split them when you meet tank.
If we talk about gap of rohan... It is one of the worst maps for raiding, if you want talk about art of raiding choose open palms 1v1 game on 10km 20km maps in 1v1...
Making 2 labs and scout after 0 - 4 engyneers is not art of raiding, it is most straight forvard simple raiding that you can have, and if you ask me you can also raid with few tanks, can be good if opponent is noob that build inf engyneers after 2labs and scout and protects you from lab raids ad well

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 24 Mar 2014, 01:42