Forged Alliance Forever

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-03-05T06:01:52+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
@Error - Aeon T2 is the weakest in many situations. I didn't believe it at first, but after a lot of thought it makes sense: They have no transition tank.

UEF, Cybran and Seraphim all have a T2 Tank which is extremely efficient at killing T1. Normal way this game plays is a slow transition from T1 to T2 with the higher tech entering when there are large T1 Armies on the field. Those T1 killing Tanks make those 3 Factions excellent at this, with UEF being the best (Pillars are cheap, so you can get many out, quickly, and to more places). Aeon's Obsidian is like the Percival, it's T2.5 and rubbish at killing T1. In fact it actually loses thanks to overkill.

IceDreamer,

This is true, but, the Aeon don't actually need a transition tank. When it comes to T2 Aeon land they only have two primary combatants Obsidians and Blazes. Neither are particularly effective at killing T1. But the Aurora is essentially a slightly higher level of T1 unit. The best proposition for countering T1 spam is to simply amass more Aurora and combine them with T2 mobile shields.

It is the presence of the Aurora itself which forces the other factions to seek T2 units. The only incentive for Aeon making T2 tanks is to counter those T1 killers. Blaze have become the natural counter to the Mongoose/Hoplite option. Obsidian are the natural counter to the Pillar/Rhino/Illshavoh options.

When facing massed T1 the Aeon answer has always been the Assylum/Aurora combo. Which is obviously less demanding on the T2 factory. Enabling it to rush T3 and get Harbies - which are the ultimate T1 killer... The problem here is that we have a lot of players who just don't understand the Aeon playbook.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 05 Mar 2014, 06:01

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-03-01T14:32:58+02:00

I never said otherwise.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 01 Mar 2014, 14:32

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-03-01T12:55:33+02:00

Microing unit should always be rewarding.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 01 Mar 2014, 12:55

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-03-01T12:41:06+02:00

My advice, if Auroras were a bit overnerfed, is to fine tune them to 3 speed and 0.5 firing randomness while moving. If the firing randomness while moving is a lower value than 0.5, it will mostly do nothing, and lower than 0.4 is roughly equal to no firing randomness at all.

However, if firing randomness is removed altogether, as Zep intends to, then Auroras will mostly be backed to 3628 state except for speed. Maybe the speed nerf to 2.9 speed will appear to be enough of a nerf. It can be tested for some weeks to see if Aeon is deemed OP again and above all, to see if the UEF buffs along with aurora speed nerfs were enough to balance the match up.

After some time, if Aeon appears too strong again, then 0.5 firing randomness on the move can be tried, or a better nerf. For me, it's a good nerf, because it directly affects what made microed auroras very unfair (= 50% hits dodge while 100% hit rate when microed), but it's certainly not the only possible one, far from it.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 01 Mar 2014, 12:41

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-03-01T00:06:30+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
@Error - Aeon T2 is the weakest in many situations. I didn't believe it at first, but after a lot of thought it makes sense: They have no transition tank.

UEF, Cybran and Seraphim all have a T2 Tank which is extremely efficient at killing T1. Normal way this game plays is a slow transition from T1 to T2 with the higher tech entering when there are large T1 Armies on the field. Those T1 killing Tanks make those 3 Factions excellent at this, with UEF being the best (Pillars are cheap, so you can get many out, quickly, and to more places). Aeon's Obsidian is like the Percival, it's T2.5 and rubbish at killing T1. In fact it actually loses thanks to overkill.

I hear what your saying, but that's the reason their T2 is the best when rushed out.

If the other side rushes T2, then by definition their isn't a lot of spam and he/she plans to pump out a boat load of T2 units. (Or tech again, but that's a special cases in and of itself.)

In that case, you don't need/want a transition tank. Which is why I said what I said.

Now in a non-rush situation, where their is a lot of T1 on the field and you are naturally just teching up, the argument holds more water. In that case, your T1 die if they get looked at cross-eyed. Still, the Aeon's blaze isn't bad for the 'transition' period. I normally roll cybran, which I think is even worst in that regard! I don't like cybran T2 that much at all. I mostly enjoy the deciever pick up, fire beetles, and vipers. Otherwise, meh. Hoplites fire cycle really messes with it's ability to actually kill swarms of units. If they decide to fire at that random lab to their right instead of the hoard of tanks to the left, I'm stuck sucking up a lot of damage for one lab getting killed by 10+ hoplites. So then then the rhino wins for not falling to this as much (or really a mix is ideal but let's not get bogged into the cybran t2 to much...)

In comparison, the blaze is better than the hoplite (DPS and mass) AND hovering! And we already know that obsidian are much better than rhinos seeing as they are only behind sera.

So in just the land phase, I see the Aeon right there with UEF. Behind sera, but in front of cybran. But tack in the domination in the air in this phase... and Aeon aren't looking too bad at all by my count.

Now I don't actually play a lot of T1 Aeon so I'm not sure how they stack up in a T1 V T1 account. I never got into the mirco dance thing -I'm very anti-mirco.
I play a fair bit of late game Aeon though and if I'm forced into early confrontations, my goal is to out-tech them (when Aeon). So again, don't see a tech rush ever hurting an Aeon player.

Statistics: Posted by errorblankfield — 01 Mar 2014, 00:06

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T21:57:26+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
RK4000 wrote:So, first, you say they left because they are bored... but then 10 minutes later you say they left because aeon is no longer "a free win" because it sounds more convenient for your further arguments?

I smell an inconsistency here...

Yes there's an inconsistency. The first comment was me talking about people in general, and while it may be that I assume too much, I don't think so. It's how all gaming communities behave when there's been a patch. He then challenged me in a way clearly talking about a small specific group, who have left for another reason.

Final point still stands though. None of us should be commenting so soon, we need a nice long break to see what happens in the long run. Me? I think Aurora need to go to 3.0 speed.

@Error - Aeon T2 is the weakest in many situations. I didn't believe it at first, but after a lot of thought it makes sense: They have no transition tank.

UEF, Cybran and Seraphim all have a T2 Tank which is extremely efficient at killing T1. Normal way this game plays is a slow transition from T1 to T2 with the higher tech entering when there are large T1 Armies on the field. Those T1 killing Tanks make those 3 Factions excellent at this, with UEF being the best (Pillars are cheap, so you can get many out, quickly, and to more places). Aeon's Obsidian is like the Percival, it's T2.5 and rubbish at killing T1. In fact it actually loses thanks to overkill.

I was referring to top players so you misunderstood what i meant.

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 28 Feb 2014, 21:57

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T16:28:29+02:00

Vee wrote:
Aurora+shield is very strong at t2, but it does need a lot of micro.

THIS!

I don't know why this combination is not used more often. If a player is good enough to micro Auroras really well (pro level) then the micro of a additional shield should not be a big problem.
If he can't use auroras the right way he will loose early game battles anyway...

Statistics: Posted by PsychoBoB — 28 Feb 2014, 16:28

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T14:26:00+02:00

Aurora+shield is very strong at t2, but it does need a lot of micro.

Statistics: Posted by Vee — 28 Feb 2014, 14:26

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T13:33:31+02:00

If the Aurora behaves different, you have to use them different.
before the patch, auroras were used to snipe and then move away. in one squad.

now if they are not that good in Shooting and moving (drawing back), why not use two squads?
one that stays a bit behind, the attacking squad shoots at the enemy and then draws back. the second squat is standing behind and hits, because they stand.

ist just a micro thing. and a different tactic to use. MAY BE?

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 28 Feb 2014, 13:33

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T08:25:50+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
So, first, you say they left because they are bored... but then 10 minutes later you say they left because aeon is no longer "a free win" because it sounds more convenient for your further arguments?

I smell an inconsistency here...

Yes there's an inconsistency. The first comment was me talking about people in general, and while it may be that I assume too much, I don't think so. It's how all gaming communities behave when there's been a patch. He then challenged me in a way clearly talking about a small specific group, who have left for another reason.

Final point still stands though. None of us should be commenting so soon, we need a nice long break to see what happens in the long run. Me? I think Aurora need to go to 3.0 speed.

@Error - Aeon T2 is the weakest in many situations. I didn't believe it at first, but after a lot of thought it makes sense: They have no transition tank.

UEF, Cybran and Seraphim all have a T2 Tank which is extremely efficient at killing T1. Normal way this game plays is a slow transition from T1 to T2 with the higher tech entering when there are large T1 Armies on the field. Those T1 killing Tanks make those 3 Factions excellent at this, with UEF being the best (Pillars are cheap, so you can get many out, quickly, and to more places). Aeon's Obsidian is like the Percival, it's T2.5 and rubbish at killing T1. In fact it actually loses thanks to overkill.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 28 Feb 2014, 08:25

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T08:18:01+02:00

[quote="Joly"So if your enemy decides to go for early air or early t2, which are extremely effective versus aeon, you cant really punish him for that and you are likely to lose. That was the main reason why I gave up on aeon (and sucky navy plus restorer nerf). [/quote]

Really?
Cause I say sera/aeon have the BEST T2 right now. A rush to T2 is a rush to their strong phase. Just look at their air -which is miles above anyone else at T2. Then on land they have obasians which I can only see the sera bot really being the better pick.

Then floating flak and shields for support...

And blazes aren't bad...

So yea, what's the problem again? I mean they are weak in the sense a T2 bot will slaughter any T1 army -but that's a reason to rush tech not prolong the spam phase.
I guess my point is yea, if you rush tech and the Aeon doesn't, they are in a bind cause their tinfoil bots can't do jack...
But if you are rushing tech, Aeon can just follow suite and they will have the better T2 phase.

Statistics: Posted by errorblankfield — 28 Feb 2014, 08:18

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T05:32:23+02:00

Previous to the patch the aurora could be abused using the "dodge dance" and that way you would never lose in 1v1 battles even against other tanks that got in close range. This problem made fighting aeon on a map like 5x5 a true nightmare (although it was ok in 10x10). This combined with the excellent speed and perfect accuracy which allowed for very good raiding and kiting enemies with no casualties allowed you to mass a big group of auroras, where they became a pretty much invencible wall of death
With the current balance, with the large speed decrease and the firing randomness its much harder to win 1v1 or small fights(and retreating is much worse) and form that big group of auroras (if you do they are still exceptional). However the speed nerf had also another big consequence since it made raiding with aeon much harder. So if your enemy decides to go for early air or early t2, which are extremely effective versus aeon, you cant really punish him for that and you are likely to lose. That was the main reason why I gave up on aeon (and sucky navy plus restorer nerf). Imo aeon is currently UP but every change should be intensively tested because its better to have 1 faction underpowered(other 3 are playable) than 1 faction overpowered (you need to chose it). My sugestion would be bring back the pre-patch speed but give it a big firing randomness so it doesnt "dodge dance" or dominate while retreating.

Statistics: Posted by Joly — 28 Feb 2014, 05:32

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T01:56:18+02:00

While I'm not nearly high enough in terms of skill to decide what is perfect and what is not (1500-ish), and cannot really bring much reliable info to the table in this discussion (way too many games around my rating are still decided by "semi"-luck) I do need to point something out.

Still, we are only a few weeks in. One can't go "Oh nobody's playing Aeon they must be crap now", one must factor in that people fancy a change now other factions are viable, people got bored of Aeon, people want to test out the changes to UEF, etc. A good 5 month gap will be great for figuring out exactly where the balance now stands.

No, those who were both high ranked and played Aeon left because they no longer had a free win at T1 Land on a large number of maps. Suddenly they can't have their cake and eat it.

So, first, you say they left because they are bored... but then 10 minutes later you say they left because aeon is no longer "a free win" because it sounds more convenient for your further arguments?

I smell an inconsistency here...

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 28 Feb 2014, 01:56

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T01:33:36+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
No, those who were both high ranked and played Aeon left because they no longer had a free win at T1 Land on a large number of maps. Suddenly they can't have their cake and eat it. Many, many lower rated casual players who have played Aeon for 6 months because that's "What the pros do", however, have now gone to see what the changes to other factions have done to change things. How do I know? My friends fall into this category, and it's exactly how all gaming communities behave

You assume too much

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 28 Feb 2014, 01:33

Re: aurora tweak pls

2014-02-28T01:29:59+02:00

No, those who were both high ranked and played Aeon left because they no longer had a free win at T1 Land on a large number of maps. Suddenly they can't have their cake and eat it. Many, many lower rated casual players who have played Aeon for 6 months because that's "What the pros do", however, have now gone to see what the changes to other factions have done to change things. How do I know? My friends fall into this category, and it's exactly how all gaming communities behave

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 28 Feb 2014, 01:29