Forged Alliance Forever

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-23T01:15:37+02:00

They are already enough thread about this, and everything has been said.

Next time, propose things for the balance patch, it's not productive to just discuss the same thing over and over.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 23 Feb 2014, 01:15

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-23T01:14:03+02:00

Exploit.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 23 Feb 2014, 01:14

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-23T00:19:34+02:00

prodromos wrote:
Bombers have a great flaw, and that is, they fly pointlessly over a large area of enemy territory, once they dropped their payload; ie they fool around merrily untill they get shot down by aa or aircraft, despite that you specifically told them to get right out of there once they hit their target.

Not sure what you where going for here... but that's literally how bombers work IRL.
They move somewhat fast and aren't agile enough to make a sharp turn so they have to do these long turns over wide areas. Of course normally you come in such an angle that the wide turn doesn't occur over AA... but you still have that big turn at some point.

Seeing as that is the inherent weakness of a bomber -or it should be- the buff to the unit should be it's inherent strength -it's payload.

Instead we turn to mircoing with just cuts out that weakness while buffing it's payload by letting you drop more often.

Everyone wins?

Statistics: Posted by errorblankfield — 23 Feb 2014, 00:19

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-22T23:18:20+02:00

RK4000 wrote:
..
Also, a micro button?! Give me a break if you have the slightest idea of how bomber micro works,

No, I do not even want to have an idea. Is this a game in a game? I saw a replay from koecher against ColonelSheppard where he just stopped playing when that was done to him. he has much more experience than i have and he dislikes that even with his great rating.
i will also in every game i see this, just quit the game. i play this game to have fun.
not to use every unfair advantage to win. i do not want to learn how to do this backward flying.

never ever i came to the idea that this would work. no someone found it out and some guys who think to repeat every move and step that looks like a step to a win, use it. i prefer a win that makes fun and has strategic depth. not using any precalculated step thats needed.
i am not sweating, i am not staring at the screen, i relax when playing. yes, my heartrate goes up in times when i do a strategic move that has to work, otherwise time and resources are wasted, and thats the fun!

i bet there are many ppl out there that have for every map a build order and even a template that fits the mex spots of the map.

anyway, if there shall be a hover ability, the bomber must of course be at the place where the bomb hits what he aims at multiplied with the factors given anyway to hit or miss.. no backward flying needed...

it can not be compared with microing land units, for the stand on the ground and have legs or tracks or whatever they have, they can move in every direction.

a bomber that can fly backwards in the sky is like a laser that shoots around corners.

p.s.: i do not understand why threads like these should be closed. is there someting bad happening then? is then some bad force gathering, destroying the forum? is it to much text to read?
why are people talking about closing this? dont they want to hear other opinions? let us discuss this, let us make a poll.
its always the same people that talk about how easy it is to counter and well, when it is like they say and it is so hard to gain an advantage from it, why do they pull it off?
it was always and already in TA the way, that you could try to finish the enemy very early by building some bombers. when you were lucky, the enemy did not have AA. if he had, very bad. but backwards flying was not one of a gentlemans chosen path.
let us please discuss here for months. why closing it? you are just trying to mute those that hate this bug.
and i think ppl that use it make others leave this game maybe forever.
great thing, in other threads we are talking about how we can get more players, and then there is this crappy bug that is mainly used on those that never seen it before and they turn their back on us and are never seen again.

really, think about this. there are so many strategies that can be pulled off, you can dodge the shots with the commander, you can snipe him in so many ways, do we need a bomber that has to be used in a way no beginner and medium player ever would find out by himself?

i like the game because there are strategies so many, that it is hard to chose from. if this bomber micro crap is (AB)used more than once, it is really poor strategy from the one that does it.

there was one person (ok, maybe some) that found out that it works this way, and all others just copied this. and copying is really poor. go, invent your own strategy!

and if there is a) no way to fix this and b) no need to make the hover button then c) let us make a sticky where all those nasty things that can be done in this game are talked about.
we need to have a short list of things that can happen to rookies. this bomber thing is one they have to be warned about

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 22 Feb 2014, 23:18

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-22T22:53:14+02:00

Well to put it, correctly, it is a good micro of an exploit and as such it cancels the exploit; does it matter? Bombers was such a nonsense unit at the beginning of the game, and the fact that it was a waste of mass and energy unit only got partially fixed with faf(they actually started bombing at the first pass).
But it still is garbage, and when I see people using them, I become sympathetic as they are just romantic trying to keep alive sth that should have long been gone. You can only lose from bombers when you 're not attentive enough or play less competitively(which can happen quite often , yes I know), and your opponent thinks he has pulled off sth great , lol.
Bombers have a great flaw, and that is, they fly pointlessly over a large area of enemy territory, once they dropped their payload; ie they fool around merrily untill they get shot down by aa or aircraft, despite that you specifically told them to get right out of there once they hit their target.
The romantics not being able to correct this weakness, endowed bombers with unacceptably high damage and splash, as well as the ability to hover like a harrier, justifying it by the fact "but you have to micro them man". And of course it can be irritating when someone talks badly about their beloved unit and tactics, and threads should be closed because this is too much for their feelings. I would love to use bombers only if they get corrected the right way and even if I could easily cheese my opponents by "microing" them to death, untill they get corrected:
"no man, no......."

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 22 Feb 2014, 22:53

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-22T22:42:08+02:00

Flipper wrote:
So, if bomber hovering is a "natural" ability of bombers, can someone add a "hover" button to make it hover in one place? If in your mind, you said, "That's just silly." then you too consider it an exploit of the game engine. Whether you will admit it or not is another matter.

exactly what i was also thinking.
now ppl might say now than it is not micro anymore but who cares? when they hover in the sky they are vulnerable to AA. totally easy to counter. make this button come true!
its totally annoying watching them dance around in the sky, being steered from people that 1) know of the bug 2) use it and have the advantage until the player that this bug is used that on is aware of this crap and 3) sell this nonsense as something special, calling it micro or skill.
when i see someone uses his bomber this way, i fell anger inside me. well, its like finding out who the person that uses this bug is thinking in a way.. i am not sympathizing with those people that do it.

if there is no way to fix this bug, a button would really make it easy ti handle for all. and then it is no "hidden feature" anymore, but a "hover over target" button.

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 22 Feb 2014, 22:42

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-21T07:22:30+02:00

close this thread plz, no one's opinion will change, if you want to do something about it go to rockoe's thread

Statistics: Posted by Aulex — 21 Feb 2014, 07:22

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-21T07:22:59+02:00

These points have been articulated many times before. I don't like the hovering behaviour for bombers. I do think that micro of bombers is something we want and I regard this hovering micro as a cheap trick. It is a low blow. The fact that it is able to be countered does not negate this fact.

It is a cheap trick, and also readily countered. If anyone does this there are several things you must do simultaneously.
1. Build Mobile AA from every factory you have
2. Build static AA in your base
3. ATTACK with every ground unit you have
4. Micro your engineers to mitigate damage.

In the context of a game I don't whine about multi-bombers. I beat them.
In the context of a gameplay discussion, however, I will say that mechanic is undesirable and should be removed. Instead, the bombers should be made more effective in their conventional role.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 21 Feb 2014, 07:20

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-21T05:52:03+02:00

I give it 2 more pages.

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 21 Feb 2014, 05:52

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-21T05:45:36+02:00

Anyone willing to take bets on how long it takes before this thread degenerates to trolling and insults, before getting locked....?

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 21 Feb 2014, 05:45

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-21T07:00:24+02:00

Oh, hey, look, I'm famous!

Joking aside, seriously. Having done this many, MANY times (me and my team sometimes use a specific build to get first bomber out quicker) I can safely say that first bomber, if it doesn't kill at least, like, EVERY engy the enemy makes AND all of his power, does NOT neccesarily pay off.

In 1v1 it's even worse.

You can't spend your APM on your initial build as much as you should. You waste a lot of potential mass with that since you won't be getting mexes up as fast as you normally would. (Airfactories for Cybran also take forever to pump out engies, but that's another issiue) You are at a disadvantage in eco, buildpower, and expansion. Very much so.

You also have NO raiding protection WHATSOEVER. Your engies are so vulnerable even single Seleens can kill them, and by the time you get a landfac up to start pumping out tanks, your enemy has about 3x the amount of them and rolls over your unprotected expansions while you try to defend the few engies you have left.

Bomber micro is probably on the VERY top of the highest risk/reward tactics. Some people that say bomber micro is wrong, say that high risk reward tactics should be encouraged because it promotes interesting play. There's an inconsistency there that I can see, and that seems to me like just plain old "not being able to counter x, so I will whine about it" rather than "I think it's interesting, but OP". (I won't point out any individuals)

And to the rest of you that are either indifferent to this, or are edging towards not wanting bomber micro to stay, just try it yourself. I can even offer practice for it (I'd say I'm decently capable at doing it), then you can use it for yourself and see that it just doesn't pay off many times.

That's the thing with threads like this, the times it doesn't pay off, go unrecorded. People only whine about it when it DOES work, which is rarely, but when it does work, it puts them at a major disadvantage, so instead of trying to learn how to counter it (not putting all 4 of your initial engies right next to your 4 pgens in a row is a great help in not getting beaten by hoverbombing...), they go spam the forums "OMG, so OP, pls nerf"...... Yes, you've lost one game because of non proper counters. You can also lose a game because you didn't counter early land raids properly. Did your expanding engies all get killed, because the enemy went with a high-risk build with 3 extremely early LAB's? Same thing, if you really think about it.

Also, a micro button?! Give me a break if you have the slightest idea of how bomber micro works, you would know that a button that would just make it hover in place is next to useless as it does the same function as clicking on ground under the bomber every 2 seconds The rest of the hoverbombing (on different targets at least) is done by: pulling the bomber back so it can actually drop, making it turn towards it's targets, etc... A button that would just make it hover in place is useless, as it would get negated by the attack command, which also makes the bomber fly forward, and no amount of automation can make the bomber then go back the distance it takes for it to drop another bomb onto a pgen (let alone a, preferably moving, engy) Another thing that also makes FA special is the fact that micro is not REQUIRED, but FA does offer you a choice, focus on micro (if you are semi-good at it, it's also a skill) or focus on macro. Removing all micro would make the game much duller than one might think. (who doesn't feel delightfully satisfied when their engy reclaims a raiding LAB that someone brought too close? )

In conclusion, I suggest, before posting more threads demanding the removal of bomber micro;

First, consider the fact how many times it FAILED, and basically LOST the game for the person that tried doing first bomber. (I have many replays for that, personal experience )

Second, try it out for yourself. As I have stated, I can help with teaching anyone that wants to know how to do it, if for nothing else just to somewhat erase the myth that it's an uber high level skill. As a 1500 it's something I frequently do, and you can't really call a 1500 player pro, can you. It will also help to show people first hand that first bomber is not as effective on average as it may seem in cases where it DOES work, because I'm willing to bet my ACU's left shoulder spikes that they will lose 9/10 games (on normal landspam-oriented 10x10 or smaller maps) when they go first bomber, with average countering from the enemy players. (not countering perfectly, but still managing to do so before losing too many engineers) When they experience first hand how far back first bomber actually sets you, I'm willing to bet that the amount of bomber micro flaming threads will decrease by at least 80%.

This is of course aimed at players around my level (and below, since, remarkably, many 1000+ people I have played with have seen hover bombers for the first time ever when I used it against them. Guess 1st bomber really isn't used THAT often )

...Everyone else, I direct you here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzv7nOH-IrY

Statistics: Posted by RK4000 — 21 Feb 2014, 05:15

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-21T03:35:44+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
See you start this pointless discussion again and again without a new point OR valid proof that it is anyhow a problem and then moan because you get an unfriendly answer. All points have been made in that big thread, just stop it now.

We just mentioned the hover button like two seconds ago. Clearly not a new thing to talk about.
And the previous stuff was explaining context without dredging it up again.
But yea, you would prefer everyone just shuts up about it cause you like it the way it is.

SAKO_X wrote:
there's a difference between how it is now and a hover button.

you have to spend effort, valuable micro time, to hover that bomber, this is a conscious decision which is often decided at the start of the game, part of your early strategy,
this gives you an advantage in one area, at the cost of attention everywhere else.

a micro button (partially) removes this.

that's not something i like the sound of, as being able to use attention as a resource is also very important in this game, and this is being threatened by this feature, auroras don't have a kite button, and neither should a bomber. there should be a penalty for increasing the bombers effectiveness, and currently i think its fine.

having said that...
can we just...
not?
have this thread? at all? please?

Yea it sucks, but you can't just say something and not expect someone to post counter points. ^_^

Long short, yes APM is a resource, but it's generally not this important on a per unit base. The closest thing you can compare it to is an all out ASF fight* which requires all APM for it's duration. But in general, queing up orders works like a charm.

The difference between kitting auroras* and not is minor -or it used to be/should be. I know the recent buffs made them mircoable -but no other race can really do this so I still prefer to think of them as a normal tank in this regard. Yes they need to be 'mircoed' in the sense of staying longish range away, but nothing too crazy like they could do for a while. So in the stay long range department, you a looking at a general 'move back' command which isn't much. If you want to get into really lab-like mirco, that's not going to increase your effectiveness nearly as much as a bomber does when it hovers -so the APM / reward is skewwed. (Marginal for the tanks, amazing for the bomber.)

But otherwise, you are right, this would remove the APM needed for hover bombing... which is the point XD. This is a core element of the game that the community hasn't completely decided on. Which matters more, marco-strategy or mirco-strategy? Yes, we need both in some cases (smaller map == mirco needed) but which do we generally balance around. In this case, current mechanics strongly favors mirco-intensive strategies. I'm in the other camp and prefer the game to have marco-intensive strategies. As such, I don't like current mechanics. :/
I don't think it's the biggest deal in the world, but the button option really allows for a middle road. It's still able to do what it currently does, everyone can do it now, and it's a marco strategy so it's not nearly as clunky in the game conceptually.

Statistics: Posted by errorblankfield — 21 Feb 2014, 03:35

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-21T02:44:42+02:00

If somebody things he has new arguments,
before posting read this thread xD

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=6211
or this:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4254
or this:
viewtopic.php?p=20379

PS.: The counter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzv7nOH-IrY

Statistics: Posted by Dragonfire — 21 Feb 2014, 02:44

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-21T01:01:39+02:00

I agree, lets stop this debate. I'm choosing to DO something.

Those who don't care for the current bomber follow the link below. Everyone else, you are welcome to follow the thread BUT please do not fill the thread with arguments like so many other threads. This is for changes ONLY.

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6761

Statistics: Posted by rockoe10 — 21 Feb 2014, 01:01

Re: is this a bug? exploit? or good micro?

2014-02-21T00:32:15+02:00

See you start this pointless discussion again and again without a new point OR valid proof that it is anyhow a problem and then moan because you get an unfriendly answer. All points have been made in that big thread, just stop it now.

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 21 Feb 2014, 00:32