Forged Alliance Forever

Re: just wondering

2014-01-08T20:48:43+02:00

RoLa wrote:
Have you ever used The Eye ... ?

Yes, and let me tell you, it works especially well when you're playing as UEF, Cybran, or Seraphim. When talking about how the Aeon Game-ender is better than all the other factions' Game-enders, does it really make sense to talk about using Aeon units against it?

Not to mention that with the eye's tiny vision radius you'll spend ages scouting a large map, time which can't be spent doing other things. If you're under attack, are you really going to ignore that to scout for a possible paragon? Spy planes can be intercepted, but at least they don't require constant attention to scout a base.

RoLa wrote:
So basically you need about 10 Percivals to defend your SMD.
(SMD health - Death Nuke ) / DPS SCU = (3800-1000) / 400 = 7 seconds
Percival has 1600 damage per shot every 4 seconds. The Scu has 29500 HP. 10 Percivals make 32000 Damage in 4-7 seconds.

You need this defense at every smd - lets say 30 percivals in total. But if I scout you with the eye i would try something different.
By the way you cant stop 4 Teleporting SCUs to destroy a vital SMDs with their own death nuke.

One group of Percivals can easily defend several SMD - just park them in the center of the group. It's really not hard to have this defense at every SMD. It is not cost efficient at all to destroy SMD with teleporting SCUs. The more SMD they have, the less useful it is. If they have one "vital" SMD that you can destroy for a win, they're doing it wrong.

RoLa wrote:
A finished paragon could be also destroyed by 5-6 teleporting scus using their death nuke

You are talking as if death nuke damage is automatic, but, unless I am recalling incorrectly, Death Nuke Damage is not unblockable by shields. You can easily stop four (or more) teleporting SCUs from destroying an SMD or Paragon, just build shields around it so that the target is right at the edge. No matter which side they teleport onto there will be shield coverage between them and the target hitbox. You have still have to penetrate those shields, before your SCUs get destroyed by the horde of sniper bots or percivals around it. It's not as easily as simply sending the SCUs in.

ColonelSheppard wrote:
a halfway build paragon will most likely not leave a wreck because of the massive overkill, a finished paragon will also not leave a wreck and also prevent all your bombers from leaving wrecks

Yeah, the Paragon is a special case. I was referring more to game-enders in general.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 08 Jan 2014, 20:48

Re: just wondering

2014-01-08T13:25:03+02:00

Mr-Smith wrote:
first of all if you have 100 strats and you compare them with a paragon http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 04,XAB1401
you willnotice that strats not just cost the same mass they cost more energy and more the biggest difference the buildtime...

Fair enough. Still, 50 strats should do the trick. At any rate, I didn't know the exact number. It was enough to leave a big scorchmark despite shield generators. I launched the nuke after that because I didn't know that one of the opponents had sent strat bombers.

there is no realy way you could finish 100 strats faster than he will get a paragon if you have an equal eco up.

True, the Aeon Player had a better economy.

so if they build the paragon together (I asume that because well what team would not)

No teams, a 3-Way FFA.

and one player of your team had 100 strats than that means you had like 3 times their eco well and if in that case you use teh strats to snipe a non finished paragon that means he will reclaim your strats and can halfway rebuild it with just the reclaim. you realy have to use 100 strats for killing an acu

He could probably have done that. With stealthed strat bombers and a couple of spy planes...

unitcap

Exactly. Also, loads of T1 engineers are just going to play traffic jam. At that point, adding more engineers will not help you right away. While you'd let them assist T3 air factories, I'd rather have CZARs and Carriers the moment that my Paragon would be finished. Granted, building a CZAR really lets you avoid traffic jams.

when the paragon is up you spam hives or kennel

As I said, no kennels. You have to do it with easy-to-manage Aeon units with lots of build power.

you get some t3 air facs up and spam asf to catch strats.
than you get lots of pds next the para to stop telesnipes and a few antinukes
than you jsut sit back and spam rapid fire artys
because well you see the mass/buildtime ratio is kinda high for air units therefor landunits and buildings are a way better investment usually as you can spam them faster

This pretty much is the way to go, but I'd like to know how you'd get to a paragon. As you've said yourself, it's a huge gamble with even economies, but with the right build power system it will pay off within a minute. These T1 engineers will be pumped out pretty quickly, so how exactly would you employ them.

While I'm working on a paragon, I'd also try to build other things and keep the economy growing (although it's slow). That is where SCUs and T3 farms (lots of Pgens) come in. As UEF or Cybran, you can easily switch between pumping out air units and building experimentals or additional PDs, thanks to the Hyves and Kennels. With Aeon, this is only really possible with T3 engineers and SCUs (although T1 engineers are still better for getting one air unit after another, they just fail on base expansion). That's why I would choose having SCUs (even before starting the paragon), with the result that I'd have a lot of fun at the end.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 08 Jan 2014, 13:25

Re: just wondering

2014-01-08T09:57:18+02:00

A finished paragon could be also destroyed by 5-6 teleporting scus using their death nuke

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 08 Jan 2014, 09:57

Re: just wondering

2014-01-08T09:43:55+02:00

a halfway build paragon will most likely not leave a wreck because of the massive overkill, a finished paragon will also not leave a wreck and also prevent all your bombers from leaving wrecks

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 08 Jan 2014, 09:43

Re: just wondering

2014-01-08T09:25:22+02:00

Mycen wrote:
I keep hearing people talk about scouting too, like it's so simple, but unfinished units' icons don't show up, so you have to really be paying attention to notice T4s under construction, a challenge on large maps. And that's not even getting into if they start and then pause several of them just to confuse you while they focus on one.

Have you ever used The Eye ... ?

Mycen wrote:
... Teleporting seraphim SCUs aren't all that hard to defend against. you can build enough percivals to take them out before they destroy a shielded SMD for a much lower cost than the SCU.

So basically you need about 10 Percivals to defend your SMD.
(SMD health - Death Nuke ) / DPS SCU = (3800-1000) / 400 = 7 seconds
Percival has 1600 damage per shot every 4 seconds. The Scu has 29500 HP. 10 Percivals make 32000 Damage in 4-7 seconds.

You need this defense at every smd - lets say 30 percivals in total. But if I scout you with the eye i would try something different.
By the way you cant stop 4 Teleporting SCUs to destroy a vital SMDs with their own death nuke.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 08 Jan 2014, 09:25

Re: just wondering

2014-01-08T04:59:37+02:00

RoLa wrote:
What does hinder you from doing the same?

Nothing stops me from doing the same. I just don't like it on principle. In general I think sharing units like that defeats the purpose of having factions. You might as well play one of those stupid voodoo maps where you start with all four ACUs. By the way, Teleporting seraphim SCUs aren't all that hard to defend against. you can build enough percivals to take them out before they destroy a shielded SMD for a much lower cost than the SCU.

RoLa wrote:
The paragon is only an option if the eco is so good that the game could be won also with other ways easily or on thermo in a no tele+nuke+hill+air+whatever game.

This is true on small maps, where strategic T4s shouldn't even be on the menu in the first place. On a 20x20 there's very little you can do to stop a raid of 100+ bombers. But on a large map it's actually not that difficult, you just fly out to meet them before they're anywhere near you. Unless they're Cybran you'll see them coming while they're still very far away. (And since Cybrans have NO game-ender options anymore, it's a damn good thing they at least have stealthed bombers.)

It's really not that hard to get a Paragon/Mavor/Yolona Oss up and running on a large map. You could be a third of the way done, and after one successful fleet engagement have all the reclaim you need to get the job finished. Not only that, but the fifteen minutes (or less!) it might take to build one isn't all that much when it can take five minutes for a group of planes five minutes just to cross the map. Send Spy Planes, locate target, then send bombers. That's ten minutes right there, so you've only got a narrow window to take out that Paragon before it's operational.

Also, people always talk about "with the resources you would use to build a paragon, you could build ten billion bombers, blah blah blah," but the reality of the matter is that if you don't succeed with that attack for whatever reason, you've then not only lost those resources, you're likely to have donated them. If you instead invest those into a game-ender not only do you not risk anything when you attack, but if it gets destroyed, you have all the resources you invested in in just sitting right there in your base, ready to be recycled.

I keep hearing people talk about scouting too, like it's so simple, but unfinished units' icons don't show up, so you have to really be paying attention to notice T4s under construction, a challenge on large maps. And that's not even getting into if they start and then pause several of them just to confuse you while they focus on one.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 08 Jan 2014, 04:59

Re: just wondering

2014-01-07T16:13:58+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
I no longer have the replays (I think) and you'd have to open them in the original 3599 exe of FA, but a couple of methods in which I managed to kill paragons of one of my friends:

Walk a GC into it. It killed heavily shielded paragon along with the ACU that was standing nearby (paragon explosion).
Use a nuke (he had no SMD in the path between my SML and the paragon). The funny thing was that the third player (another friend) had just killed the paragon (at 90% completion) with 100 stealth end strat bombers. I had hoped to kill the paragon seconds after it was completed because the thick layer of shield generators might have saved the SCUs, but the added explosion of the paragon certainly would've finished them.

The SCUs brings me to the build power part. While you're building a paragon, you also want to build SCUs. These things have a high build power, can be upgraded with more of it, can get a shield or a teleporter and as such they are either indestructible (not completely, but strong enough to keep strat bombers or GCs busy while pumping out one static shield after another, or one SAM or PD after another. The. High build power also allows you to construct a dozen GCs only two minutes after your paragon is done. Just put all engineers to building GCs, CZARs, or Tempest. The latter two can build ships and planes in turn, adding even more build power and protection to your base in moments.

To deal with the units bumping into you, let the blob of T3 engineers build CZARs, these things are so large that they actually add to the build range of units, so twenty t3 engies will barely have to move if you tell them to build a CZAR right after finishing the paragon. Have SCUs build GCs in groups of five or six. This will not contribute to bumping so much. These things can just be ordered to build in one giant line (like you always do with T1 Pgens). little delay with movement and if you have 20 SCUs, you really don't need to have all 20 build the same GC.

As of such, having kennels or hives with a paragon is fun (a lot of fun, I did it once), you should be able to do it with T3 engies and SCUs just fine.

first of all if you have 100 strats and you compare them with a paragon http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 04,XAB1401
you willnotice that strats not just cost the same mass they cost more energy and more the biggest difference the buildtime...

there is no realy way you could finish 100 strats faster than he will get a paragon if you have an equal eco up.

so if they build the paragon together (I asume that because well what team would not)

and one player of your team had 100 strats than that means you had like 3 times their eco well and if in that case you use teh strats to snipe a non finished paragon that means he will reclaim your strats and can halfway rebuild it with just the reclaim. you realy have to use 100 strats for killing an acu

next point is you dont use scus for buildpower...
you spam t1 engis, t1 engis are the key to buildpower.
build 10 landfacs and spam t1 engis. would bu stupid to use scus
scus are like hives just a total end game solution when you have your mexens t3 and reach the unitcap

when the paragon is up you spam hives or kennel
you get some t3 air facs up and spam asf to catch strats.
than you get lots of pds next the para to stop telesnipes and a few antinukes
than you jsut sit back and spam rapid fire artys
because well you see the mass/buildtime ratio is kinda high for air units therefor landunits and buildings are a way better investment usually as you can spam them faster

Statistics: Posted by Mr-Smith — 07 Jan 2014, 16:13

Re: just wondering

2014-01-07T15:25:51+02:00

monty wrote:
so in conclusion the paragon sucks and needs more discount

I dont think it sucks! It's the most powerful building and in very advanced team games (time and eco wise) it can be an option to break a stalemate. If both teams have each 800 mass income. And then there is a big chunk of exp mass to reclaim for one team - lets say 4 exps then the paragon could be built in a few minutes. After 10 minutes each player of the team has a paragon. The opponent will perhaps not be able to react in time. But building a Paragon in half an hour will propably fail.

To build and attack with 80 T3 Bomber + 200 ASF or to build / upgrade sacus and a nuke takes too long.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 07 Jan 2014, 15:25

Re: just wondering

2014-01-07T14:56:26+02:00

As I already stated, Paragon is very skill dependent. Have you ever tried having a couple of t3 factories only building t3 engineers which build more factories? It gets out of control so ridiculously fast that you'll be done with a second Paragon less than two minutes after the first one finishing. At that point it's very hard to lose anymore.
Paragon is an instant win for a good enough player and I'm very glad it costs so much it can never be achieved in a proper map.

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 07 Jan 2014, 14:56

Re: just wondering

2014-01-07T13:41:19+02:00

so in conclusion the paragon sucks and needs more discount

Statistics: Posted by monty — 07 Jan 2014, 13:41

Re: just wondering

2014-01-07T13:22:07+02:00

I no longer have the replays (I think) and you'd have to open them in the original 3599 exe of FA, but a couple of methods in which I managed to kill paragons of one of my friends:

Walk a GC into it. It killed heavily shielded paragon along with the ACU that was standing nearby (paragon explosion).
Use a nuke (he had no SMD in the path between my SML and the paragon). The funny thing was that the third player (another friend) had just killed the paragon (at 90% completion) with 100 stealth end strat bombers. I had hoped to kill the paragon seconds after it was completed because the thick layer of shield generators might have saved the SCUs, but the added explosion of the paragon certainly would've finished them.

The SCUs brings me to the build power part. While you're building a paragon, you also want to build SCUs. These things have a high build power, can be upgraded with more of it, can get a shield or a teleporter and as such they are either indestructible (not completely, but strong enough to keep strat bombers or GCs busy while pumping out one static shield after another, or one SAM or PD after another. The. High build power also allows you to construct a dozen GCs only two minutes after your paragon is done. Just put all engineers to building GCs, CZARs, or Tempest. The latter two can build ships and planes in turn, adding even more build power and protection to your base in moments.

To deal with the units bumping into you, let the blob of T3 engineers build CZARs, these things are so large that they actually add to the build range of units, so twenty t3 engies will barely have to move if you tell them to build a CZAR right after finishing the paragon. Have SCUs build GCs in groups of five or six. This will not contribute to bumping so much. These things can just be ordered to build in one giant line (like you always do with T1 Pgens). little delay with movement and if you have 20 SCUs, you really don't need to have all 20 build the same GC.

As of such, having kennels or hives with a paragon is fun (a lot of fun, I did it once), you should be able to do it with T3 engies and SCUs just fine.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 07 Jan 2014, 13:22

Re: just wondering

2014-01-07T09:22:40+02:00

Mycen wrote:
What really frustrates me about the Paragon is that how people combine it with unit sharing. I find it very irritating that an Aeon player can build a paragon and then use a UEF engineer from an ally to have massive clouds of kennel drones with unlimited construction ability. At least when you're limited to Aeon units you only have relatively inefficient builders and no T4 strategic weapons.

What does hinder you from doing the same? Lets say you play as cybran. For the price of the Paragon you can get three fully upgraded Seraphim SACUs + Nuke launcher propably you just need one Seraphim SACU to destroy nuke defence or to cripple the power production so the paragon is never ended. Think out of the box! You can also teleport somewhere out of omni vision and build a stealth generator. There you can build several tml or ground exp. So basically the opponent can defdend against one or two threads but not against all at once. At least up to mid level you will break through every turtling base player if you have the intel and your eco is as good as that of your opponent. You just have to be a bit creative. Or win naval and get some aircraft carriers like the atlantis. There you can produce 60 t3 Bomber and 200 ASF for the price of the paragon without anyone knowing it.

The paragon is only an option if the eco is so good that the game could be won also with other ways easily or on thermo in a no tele+nuke+hill+air+whatever game.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 07 Jan 2014, 09:22

Re: just wondering

2014-01-07T07:10:50+02:00

Firewall wrote:
I could post some replays to support this. But the Paragon is not all it isn't as great as some might suggest. When I log back onto my computer, I will post a replay to support this.

Essentially, the Paragon provides infinite resources. But the abilities of its owner are still limited by BUILD POWER. If the Paragon has been quite successfully protected from direct snipe. A more useful tactic is to destroy build power. Which renders the Paragon impotent.

can you upload the replays?

Statistics: Posted by monty — 07 Jan 2014, 07:10

Re: just wondering

2014-01-07T04:48:30+02:00

Well of course you can just scout it - unless they keep you busy enough to get it mostly completed before you can find/attack it. When you're playing on an 81x81, it's not enough just to know where it is, you have to get stuff in position to destroy it...

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 07 Jan 2014, 04:48

Re: just wondering

2014-01-07T04:57:28+02:00

Scouting?

Seriously, if they get anywhere beyond 50% completion on a Paragon, without you knowing about it, you deserve to loose. Considering how awesome the Paragon is the incentive to build one is strong. Therefore, it is natural to expect that an Aeon player will try to build one... People are so predictable.

Because the Paragon is an indirect game ender, it's ability to end games increases with time. It is those critical stages, after the Paragon is completed that the player is vulnerable. Conversely, with a Mavor or T4 Nuke, they achieve their greatest potency immediately after construction. The longer a game goes on, the lower the likelihood that these units will end it.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 07 Jan 2014, 04:41