Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-16T23:06:15+02:00

I have

It's the (by now legendary) lu_Xun game. He thought he could finish it with a mavor and eventually was beaten by some fatboys and a T3 artillery. It should be on gamereplays.com with the name "worst shame of my life". It's an old FA file, not FAF, and you should be able to watch it with the old 3599 version of FA.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 16 Jan 2014, 23:06

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-16T18:53:23+02:00

Firewall, I tried your 'early gun' build order a few times against AI and then got Winter Duel in ranked and it worked great. I had to use my amazing powers of adaptation because they acu rushed me, so I built slightly less power to get the gun, then went immediate t2 land afterwards, which fits perfectly complements that eco perfectly since you only have 1 fac and a few engies - whilst they have spent all of their mass on t1 landspam which is redundant against the gun'd acu. Didn't need the t2 at all but why not.

I've never seen a winter duel game last long enough to get to t2 land.

Statistics: Posted by Flipper — 16 Jan 2014, 18:53

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-16T01:43:46+02:00

partytime wrote:
Ok so to get back on topic. Does anyone have some actual strategies for me? Something more specific than "build more power" but doesn't have to be exact.

Firewall, I tried your 'early gun' build order a few times against AI and then got Winter Duel in ranked and it worked great. I had to use my amazing powers of adaptation because they acu rushed me, so I built slightly less power to get the gun, then went immediate t2 land afterwards, which fits perfectly complements that eco perfectly since you only have 1 fac and a few engies - whilst they have spent all of their mass on t1 landspam which is redundant against the gun'd acu. Didn't need the t2 at all but why not.

Thanks for all of your answers so far. Does anyone have any ideas for t2 eng suite on say ... canis river?

Alright, I'm a 1380 or so and my best maps are twin rivers and wonder. I think 4v4 Cannis has a very special meta game where you rely more on reclaim that I can't speak to that well. But, I'd highly recommend 1 build order that has been mentioned to get you started and can easily be adapted to various strategies. Like everyone has emphasized, you use this as a guideline to get started. Different maps are so different that the fine details should change accordingly. I used it as a start, and then every time I played twin rivers would notice little ways that I could use each engie better. Here are a few more specifics on how I run the strategy, but everyone can find their own that works for them! This isn't starcraft. My take:

1.) 2 land factory opening

Commander does:
lfac
2 power
2 mex
3power
lfac
walk forward and upgrade or fight

first factory:
2 or 3 engies
1 scout
1 engie
2 tanks
5 engies
2 tanks
5 engies
2 tanks
100 engies

second factory:
1 scout
3 or 4 tanks
optional mobile aa
1 arty

first engie:
2 nearby mexes then reclaim or further mexes

second engie:
easy to find mexes then spam power or reclaim

third engie:
radar, forward mex, more factories

fourth engie: maybe help with power, maybe reclaim, maybe help with factories depending on if you need the power for com upgrades and how juicy the reclaim is and how much you want the spam.

Hopefully that kind of gives you an idea of how I at least think about things with the standard build?

One more build:

2.) rush the hydro

Com:
land factory
pgen
4 mexes
assist hydro
go forward

factory:
4 engies
scout
2 tanks
50 engies

first 3 engies work on hydro then shoot off and go after mexes.
4th engie goes straight for mexes.

You can spam your next land factory really quickly with your com, or with an engie and have your com go forward, or not build it as quickly and have your first factory get more tanks. This is a great starting build imho on a map like wonder 4v4.

Statistics: Posted by sasin — 16 Jan 2014, 01:43

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-08T12:47:16+02:00

Ok so to get back on topic. Does anyone have some actual strategies for me? Something more specific than "build more power" but doesn't have to be exact.

Firewall, I tried your 'early gun' build order a few times against AI and then got Winter Duel in ranked and it worked great. I had to use my amazing powers of adaptation because they acu rushed me, so I built slightly less power to get the gun, then went immediate t2 land afterwards, which fits perfectly complements that eco perfectly since you only have 1 fac and a few engies - whilst they have spent all of their mass on t1 landspam which is redundant against the gun'd acu. Didn't need the t2 at all but why not.

Thanks for all of your answers so far. Does anyone have any ideas for t2 eng suite on say ... canis river?

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 08 Jan 2014, 12:47

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-08T08:29:49+02:00

Firewall: Turns out we call different things with the same name. You seem to think of a BO as a general guideline, whereas I've taken the term from SC2 where the BOs are very exact. In SC2 the average player wouldn't think of changing the BO up and one would very easily fall in the trap of following BOs blindly, this is the result of very high level of refinement. A very refined BO can't be adapted without breaking it completely. Day9 has talked about this a lot in his videos. If used in a more general sense, I think I'd call it a gameplan rather than a build order.

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 08 Jan 2014, 08:29

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-08T06:08:40+02:00

Blodir wrote:
Firewall wrote:There is nothing "Set" about any BO

On the contrary, the whole point of a Build Order is that it is the optimal order in which to build things to achieve a certain goal.

Nobody can disagree with recognizing efficient building patterns in earlygame. What we oppose is learning static pre-made Build Orders by heart.

Well that is just it. They are neither fixed nor static. The degree to which they are fixed is directly related to their effectiveness at winning games and their suitability for the emergent tactical situation. Read: Adaptive.

A BO should not be considered absolute. But rather as a starting point and guide - which outlines the general principles for achieving certain outcomes. The point of categorising and defining a BO at a more detailed level, is to highlight important details which are essential to successful execution.

The reason why there is such diversity in opening BO's is because there are a variety of different tactical directions available. The whole concept of 'optimal' is not applicable until one have defined one's objectives. One must consider the concepts of risk, return, and flexibility.

As tactical needs change, openings are improvised and altered. With such learning comes refinement and precision. So it is often useful to consolidate ones learning into a BO. It is all part of the learning cycle.

Adaptation >> Innovation >> Refinement >> Adaptation.
Blodir. Perhaps we should recognise that we are describing different aspects of the same process.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 08 Jan 2014, 06:08

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-07T21:59:49+02:00

Blodir wrote:
You're (both of you) probably right in that learning a build order does have its upsides and I've been a bit too much against it since it never worked for myself that well However I do think that many players have fallen into stagnation as a result of build orders, so one does have to tread carefully with them. I would use build orders just as reference material, though. You must have a customized build order for every map with possibility of different positions too, so it really doesn't make sense learning them by heart unless you play that map+position a lot.

Yeah, that's totally fair; I think your warnings/fears make a lot of sense . But as long as your aware of them and don't get too dependent on blindly following someone else, you can still make some use of them. This is about the most reasonable internet conversation I've ever seen.

Statistics: Posted by sasin — 07 Jan 2014, 21:59

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-07T21:35:13+02:00

You're (both of you) probably right in that learning a build order does have its upsides and I've been a bit too much against it since it never worked for myself that well However I do think that many players have fallen into stagnation as a result of build orders, so one does have to tread carefully with them. I would use build orders just as reference material, though. You must have a customized build order for every map with possibility of different positions too, so it really doesn't make sense learning them by heart unless you play that map+position a lot.

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 07 Jan 2014, 21:35

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-07T20:45:36+02:00

Mad`Mozart wrote:
Blodir wrote:Using build orders doesn't mean that you can't be good, they simply make the process of becoming good much longer.

And what exactly makes you think that?
I can tell you from my own experience that using BOs will make you learn the game faster and become good faster. You dont just see how your starting resources can be used most efficiently but you actually try to recreate it yourself. And that is a process of learning.

Blodir wrote:
In the single game itself, yes obviously. All comes down to the learning process. The goal is that you'll eventually be able to create almost as efficient build orders without remembering anything by heart and in any map and not just the ones you know. Build orders are a short-term solution.

So, if it comes down to the learning process, what is the best way to learn? See how its done and try to recreate it. And this is where BOs come in play. You copy one from top player and learn from it. Now you have more knowledge how things work and can try your own stuff. Simple

Yeah, I agree with this. Blodir, I think you're reading too much into the guy asking about build orders and assuming he's going to use them a certain way. A few months ago vor_tex told me the exact procedure for two basic build orders, and on a specific map a long, detailed build order. Knowing the basic builds is a good step stone to get better. The two fac opening allows you to have more tanks etc. on the field earlier and not power stall or overbuild power. The rushing the hydro build helps you get going that much faster on maps with a hydro. Having a long, detailed BO for one map allowed me to think about why that BO works well and apply some lessons to the game in general. It was a good start, and from there I was able to adapt things to my own style. Someone giving you a build order doesn't mean you intend to blindly follow it forever. It's frustrating not knowing how to start a game. Everyone understands the concepts of not overbuilding/underbuilding power and wanting to get units on the field. A suggested starting place is very useful for some people.

Anyways, this is all neither here nor there. The point is, different people learn differently, and maybe you don't benefit from someone giving you a build order or trying to play with a specific build order. But, someone asked for one, so let him learn the way he wants to learn.

Statistics: Posted by sasin — 07 Jan 2014, 20:45

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-07T20:37:16+02:00

Blodir wrote:
Using build orders doesn't mean that you can't be good, they simply make the process of becoming good much longer.

And what exactly makes you think that?
I can tell you from my own experience that using BOs will make you learn the game faster and become good faster. You dont just see how your starting resources can be used most efficiently but you actually try to recreate it yourself. And that is a process of learning.

Blodir wrote:
In the single game itself, yes obviously. All comes down to the learning process. The goal is that you'll eventually be able to create almost as efficient build orders without remembering anything by heart and in any map and not just the ones you know. Build orders are a short-term solution.

So, if it comes down to the learning process, what is the best way to learn? See how its done and try to recreate it. And this is where BOs come in play. You copy one from top player and learn from it. Now you have more knowledge how things work and can try your own stuff. Simple

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 07 Jan 2014, 20:37

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-07T20:02:32+02:00

Mad`Mozart wrote:
If i say that i learnt BOs for some maps by heart and always use them, will i prove you wrong?

No, you've obviously played the game enough to have a good grasp of how to adapt, even if you do use build orders on certain maps. Using build orders doesn't mean that you can't be good, they simply make the process of becoming good much longer.

Also when you learnt a BO and dont waste time thinking about what you should do next, you have more time to focus on unit micro and manual reclaim (which is more productive lol).

In the single game itself, yes obviously. All comes down to the learning process. The goal is that you'll eventually be able to create almost as efficient build orders without remembering anything by heart and in any map and not just the ones you know. Build orders are a short-term solution.

And damn, it is never to late to make some changes to a BO you are using (read: adapt).

Of course, if you have to make too many changes though, doesn't that mean your build order was bad to begin with?

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 07 Jan 2014, 20:02

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-07T19:52:55+02:00

ya having a few BO's for different maptypes and focus on manual reclaim and early micro can put you quiet far forward

Statistics: Posted by Mr-Smith — 07 Jan 2014, 19:52

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-07T19:46:27+02:00

Blodir wrote:
If you simply learn a BO by heart and use it every time, you will never learn how to adapt to new situations and new maps. A bit like how Seton's players suck at everything else.

It's also a huge effort, while you could be focusing your attention on something more productive.

Why is that??
If i say that i learnt BOs for some maps by heart and always use them, will i prove you wrong?

Also when you learnt a BO and dont waste time thinking about what you should do next, you have more time to focus on unit micro and manual reclaim (which is more productive lol).

And damn, it is never to late to make some changes to a BO you are using (read: adapt).

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 07 Jan 2014, 19:46

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-07T19:35:03+02:00

Mad`Mozart wrote:
And whats wrong with blindly copying BO? All it provides is a good start to support your strategy or just not to suck early game. Or with good BO you can just bash people on a lower/average rank scale

If you simply learn a BO by heart and use it every time, you will never learn how to adapt to new situations and new maps. A bit like how Seton's players suck at everything else.

It's also a huge effort, while you could be focusing your attention on something more productive.

Statistics: Posted by Blodir — 07 Jan 2014, 19:35

Re: Build Orders

2014-01-07T19:27:37+02:00

Sorry but this is just a load of crap)
What are your points based on? I dont see any logic behind them, you say smth and then contradict with yourself in the next sentence.

RoLa wrote:
Blindly copying BOs means you dont understand why a certain BO will be used in certain situation while another would be perhaps better. If you know when a BO provides a good start you arent copying blindly but you adapt to the situation.

Maybe it means that the player you copied BO from just does it better? And, uhm, when you copy BO it sorta provides a good start otherwise why would you copy it? And the fact you are copying it means you do know that it provides a good start... This is just wtf. Doesnt make sense.

RoLa wrote:
If you try to teach a beginner several BOs which are very optimised and specific it is very likely that he will fail because he lacks the skill to use them like you. For example "air first / bomber first" is very risky in the hands of a noob. If at a specific map "air first" is the best choice it doesnt mean it's best for a player with low skill or if you know that your opponent has a counter . So blindly copying the best BO for a specific map doesnt mean it's the best choice.

So far i have never seen people in FAF grabbing some random noobs and force-teaching them stuff
Stop looking at people willing to learn as dumbfuck idiots. They want to learn how to play better, so what if they fail first time doing smth they didnt do before? Its a matter of practice and not deciding yourself what they should know and what shouldn't. BO is just a good start, nothing else (unless its 5km map) and there's plenty of things to do later in the game.

RoLa wrote:
It's also better if you can execute 3 general BOs perfectly than to have 15 optimised BOs where you make sometimes a mistake, like let your buildpower be destroyed by a bomber or a misplaced building loosing several seconds or a power stall because of reclaiming rocks instead of trees or something like that.

Better for who? Again you try to decide what people should do.
Also 15 optimised BOs is kinda too much. And whats wrong with making mistakes. Even top players make them, so what?
I really cant get your point here.

Conclusion: pls stop posting, you dont make sense

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 07 Jan 2014, 19:27