Forged Alliance Forever

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-31T00:03:41+02:00

BlackFish wrote:
Ze_PilOt wrote:
BlackFish wrote:You can always make a match making system that also does team games.

Trueskill is the only system capable of rating team games. That's what it's doing currently. I don't understand what you mean.

I meant to say automatic match making. You know how you play call of duty or some other silly console multiplayer game where you search for a team game and it'll automatically place you in a team? Say I clicked search for ranked but instead search for a teamgame, and it'll put me in a team game depending on the size of the game that I want. Perhaps also include parties (like, a 2 player team searches for another 2 player team in ranked). GPGNET had something similar long ago I thought.

That would be great if more than one game in the entire world was ever being hosted on FAF at any one time.

Statistics: Posted by Antoninus — 31 Jan 2012, 00:03

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-30T23:51:50+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
BlackFish wrote:You can always make a match making system that also does team games.

Trueskill is the only system capable of rating team games. That's what it's doing currently. I don't understand what you mean.

I meant to say automatic match making. You know how you play call of duty or some other silly console multiplayer game where you search for a team game and it'll automatically place you in a team? Say I clicked search for ranked but instead search for a teamgame, and it'll put me in a team game depending on the size of the game that I want. Perhaps also include parties (like, a 2 player team searches for another 2 player team in ranked). GPGNET had something similar long ago I thought.

Statistics: Posted by BlackFish — 30 Jan 2012, 23:51

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-30T16:27:13+02:00

BlackFish wrote:
You can always make a match making system that also does team games.

Trueskill is the only system capable of rating team games. That's what it's doing currently. I don't understand what you mean.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 30 Jan 2012, 16:27

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-30T16:26:36+02:00

Lu_Xun_17 wrote:
I played a lot of FFA on FAF, and yes the system is bugged for this type of game : all the one i won made me losing billions of points, and the only on i lost made me win some points.

Even since 3610 ?
The random position in 3609 was making the score system to fail (the players and scores were randomized too). That is fixed.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 30 Jan 2012, 16:26

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-30T16:24:44+02:00

maybe FFAs should be excluded from trueskill then?

Statistics: Posted by Kryo — 30 Jan 2012, 16:24

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-30T15:15:59+02:00

I played a lot of FFA on FAF, and yes the system is bugged for this type of game : all the one i won made me losing billions of points, and the only on i lost made me win some points.

Statistics: Posted by Lu_Xun_17 — 30 Jan 2012, 15:15

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-29T22:53:45+02:00

You can always make a match making system that also does team games.

Statistics: Posted by BlackFish — 29 Jan 2012, 22:53

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-29T21:22:18+02:00

As stated, you don't have to know how, because it's broken.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 29 Jan 2012, 21:22

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-29T21:14:44+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
You can get the game quality by typing "get quality" in the FA lobby.
You can also type "get teams" to have the most balanced teams possible.

What and where exactly? Could you be more certain please? Because "writing it in FA lobby" as stated above doesn't work

Statistics: Posted by Raging_Squirrel — 29 Jan 2012, 21:14

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-29T20:24:46+02:00

It would be great if in deed we could easily get an idea on how much teams are balanced or not.

If you need help for the "rethink", I'm in

Statistics: Posted by Styx — 29 Jan 2012, 20:24

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-29T18:22:52+02:00

Some precisions, so new players won't be confuse, even if you are right :

FFA count for more because they are more teams (even it's only 1 person in them), so it can evaluate more precisely the performance between each team. It's not that it count for more, but that it can retrieve more informations from it.
But a 2vs2vs2vs2 will have the same impact as a 4 FFA.

Trueskill does see your score, but your team score, not your individual score. But indeed, in a FFA, it will be the same.
Also, it doesn't matter if you have (and all others) -1 or +4 if the winner has +5. At the end, what trueskill really see is the final order of the players, from top to bottom. Fact is that I order the players by the score given by FA (the score you see).

Indeed, FFA shouldn't matter much in your rating. It will be changed (remember : beta), but the problem is how to detect FFA.

That lead to the final point :
You can get the game quality by typing "get quality" in the FA lobby.
You can also type "get teams" to have the most balanced teams possible.
But it won't work because of auto-team :
Before the game starts, every games will be seen as FFA. I need to rethink the way autoteam send infos to the server in order to make it works again.

Also, the FA lobby can send infos to the server, but the opposite is not true. I have no way to display the game quality inside the lobby.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 29 Jan 2012, 18:22

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-29T18:08:55+02:00

Styx wrote:
Ze_PilOt wrote:You can know the "bet" trueskill is making before the game starts. It's called "game quality", it's a percentage of a balance game.
100% mean that every team have equal chances or winning.
No game should be played with a game quality under 70%, for balance sake.
Most of the FAF games are rated below 50%

How can we check that game quality percentage? Where can we see it ? i'm interested

Yes, I also think FAF should post the game quality in the lobby... and give some indication which is the higher skill team.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 29 Jan 2012, 18:08

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-29T18:08:02+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Trueskill is pretty accurate at evaluating teams games.

Yeah. I'm not complaining about team games with 2 teams.

BUT it's true that FFA shouldn't count for the same as any other game mode due to the randomness factor.
But when does it become really random ? 1v1v1 are fairly balanced for exemple...
Also, if you doesn't lock the teams, the game shouldn't take it like a FFA..

FFA doesn't just count the same as other game modes, it counts for MORE.

In the context of FPS, this makes a lot of sense. After all, in FPS, if you die, you respawn and can kill more people. Also, there's no such thing as a snow-ball effect... 30 seconds into the game versus 30 minutes into the game, everybody has the same guns, the same hit points, the same potential for a skill difference to make one guy rise to the top and have a high kill/death. That's not true in FA FFA, though, if two high-skill players fight each other, a third low skill player, who is left to tech and eco, will be put into a position which, despite his lesser skill, he will be able to win just because of all the extra units/upgrades/resources that he has.

Also zep, you say it doens't matter whether you die or not, and Truskill doesn't see that, but Truskill DOES see your final game score, and if you die, you get -1. If it's an 8 man FFA and you have opponents who rage quit before you kill them and you are not ultimately victorious, the winner will have +5 but everybody else, even you if you were only the last to die, will have -1 and tie for last-place, and thus take a huge hit in rating because, according to trueskill, even though I was expected to place beneath Zock (who, in this example, ultimately won), I was not expected to place on the same level as huan36 (rating -277) and therefore my rating suffers immensely.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 29 Jan 2012, 18:08

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-29T15:18:50+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
You can know the "bet" trueskill is making before the game starts. It's called "game quality", it's a percentage of a balance game.
100% mean that every team have equal chances or winning.
No game should be played with a game quality under 70%, for balance sake.
Most of the FAF games are rated below 50%

How can we check that game quality percentage? Where can we see it ? i'm interested

Statistics: Posted by Styx — 29 Jan 2012, 15:18

Re: TruSkill is harsh

2012-01-29T12:13:43+02:00

Oh, and AI doesn't count because they don't have any rating.

So except if you do 2 human vs 1 one AI and one human, it won't count (and in that case, it will count as a 2vs1)

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 29 Jan 2012, 12:13