Forged Alliance Forever

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-11-02T03:42:29+02:00

The drones can fly... that's a huge advantage.

In the "mass / BP" discussion I miss the element of path finding. You might have a 100 T1 engies moving from one side of your base to the other in a giant five minute bumping party... I'll have my 13 T3 engineers on the other side of my base in 30 seconds and then actually using their build power.

I like it how you can still kill 1000+ rated players with a nuke on large maps. "My ACU couldn't walk, just kept bumping into engies" There's your mass efficient build power.

The hyves are even better for stationary use: they don't donate instant veterancy to any visiting exp as opposed to massed T1 engies, they work wireless, have basically zero travel time. A fully upgrade hive has BP of 75; that's equal to 25 T1 engies... yet it only takes up one space. And with their higher hitpoints it means they don't die in the outer ring of a nuke explosion.

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 02 Nov 2013, 03:42

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T23:50:29+02:00

For Kennels, the primary reason they aren't used now is the ASF problem. As pip so correctly pointed out, if the ASF changes go through, this problem will be dramatically reduced, and they may again see play. Their inefficiency is more than made up for by their mobility, were it not for the ASFs.

For SCUs, the Engineering upgrades need to be a tad cheaper, and the UEF Drone upgrade needs something drastic doing, like a really heavy price cut. Again, the fact it can be nullified by AA where the alternate versions cannot is a huge, gigantic roadblock saying 'No, don't build this, it's pointless'.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 31 Oct 2013, 23:50

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T23:01:14+02:00

Just a random idea that was floating round in my head

I wonder if you could give them shitty build power for mass but also give them a very low build time, allowing them to quicky add build and reclaim capacity to a firebase. Essentially changing them from an extreme lategame option to a mid game one.

Im not actually suggesting this as I change but am I the only one who finds this would be better role?

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 31 Oct 2013, 23:01

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T22:37:52+02:00

How expensive are these drones exactly? And how many Sam sites do you need to kill the equivalent of these drones in ASFs (not counting the additional cost of ASFs, these can kill more than once).

Additionally, the kennels are the easier ones to upgrade and manage. They also have unlimited range.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 31 Oct 2013, 22:37

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T17:39:17+02:00

I don't think anybody is saying that hives are useless, just kennels. If ASF fly over your base they will kill the expensive drones *and* your base, and the damage will be much greater than the damage to the ASF unless you have a million sams. Couple this with the fact that they give very low buildpower per mass makes them even worse. I don't know of any games where kennels were used where engineers wouldn't have been a better choice.

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 31 Oct 2013, 17:39

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T14:40:41+02:00

You guys should stop looking merely at numbers and check in game the efficiency of the different builders. Engineering stations are extremely useful but not in every game. Sure the drones can be wiped out by ASF but if you have a handful of SAM in your base, they will kill the ASF and you will gain air superiority for the loss of the drones, but you'll also be able to reclaim the mass of the ASF and rebuild your drone force quickly. And if ASF gets extreme fronloaded damages in the next patch, they will completely suck at killing drones.

Hives are super powerful too when used smartly, they can even reclaim t3 units in no time if you have several of them upgraded. If you still think engineering stations suck, don't use them, there are plenty of other options, but we don't, at least I don't, want to go back to OP engineering stations. I'm pretty sure they already are in the good hands (Blackheart...).

And please show me a replay where someone abuse Sera or Aeon t3 engineers superior buildpower. I would be very happy to see a single replay where a player has more t3 engineers than t1 ones: replacing lower tier engies by higher tier ones was the main purpose of engy mod, in case you don't remember, and it's a good thing if players start to realize t3 engies = good.

As for SCU, 56 buildpower is plenty enough to pd creep, it takes 12 seconds to build a t2 pd. They have around 15000 HP and deal twice or three times the damage they used to deal. You all seem to forget that SCU used to cost 9500 mass and that you can now have several SCU for the same cost in order to PD creep at a very fast speed, or help kill t3 units, or both, then reclaim the battlefield without fear of being sniped, and make coffee at the same time. A couple SCU will not be killed by a single t3 arty shot or a couple t1 bombers.
If ever something can be tweaked about their buildpower, it's their engineering upgrade cost, that is probably too expensive compared to just getting an additional SCU.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 31 Oct 2013, 14:40

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T13:37:45+02:00

OK I've tested it, the build rate of the drone itself is 25 not 20, so that gives us 22 mass per buildpower for the kennel.

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 31 Oct 2013, 13:37

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T13:36:17+02:00

even with idea that support commanders should be used for offence, they should be good at PD creep as well, so i would like to increase their BP a bit

also if anyone ever will change BP, do not forget to change upgraide build time for support commanders

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 31 Oct 2013, 13:36

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T13:23:36+02:00

Isn't a free drone included in building a kennel? And if that is the build rate of the station not the drone itself, then what is the build rate of the drone?

What about SCU's?

35.7 normal
30.6 with rapid fabricator upgrade

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 31 Oct 2013, 13:23

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T11:16:48+02:00

Cantor wrote:
Mass per buildpower:

t1 engi: 10.4
t2 engi: 12.8
sparky: 12.9
aeon/sera t3 engi: 12.25
uef/cybran t3 engi: 16.3
kennel: 25.0
hive: 14.0

I started a thread after the last patch about the Kennel http://www.faforever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4640&p=49898#p49765 and feel it is not worth building, Pip posted a replay where they where heavly used but I never got round to checking it out, I thought it might have been the one that Gyle casted (nice cast by the way) on Seraphim Glaciers. If it was I had planned to review it and see how much mass was wasted building the most inefficient builder by far, I also thought the build power was totally wiped out at one point by a squad of interceptors which helped highlight one of the negative aspects of the Kennel.

Useful post by the way. I did't realise Aeon and Seraphim T3 enginners had more build power and better efficiency.

Also Mass/BR for the Kennel is actually worse than the 25 you quoted, check out the thread I linked to above, it is more like 30.

Statistics: Posted by X-Peri-MENTAL — 31 Oct 2013, 11:16

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T07:00:06+02:00

Cantor wrote:
Mass per buildpower:

t1 engi: 10.4
t2 engi: 12.8
sparky: 12.9
aeon/sera t3 engi: 12.25
uef/cybran t3 engi: 16.3
kennel: 25.0
hive: 14.0

What about SCU's?

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 31 Oct 2013, 07:00

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T03:47:35+02:00

Mass per buildpower:

t1 engi: 10.4
t2 engi: 12.8
sparky: 12.9
aeon/sera t3 engi: 12.25
uef/cybran t3 engi: 16.3
kennel: 25.0
hive: 14.0

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 31 Oct 2013, 03:47

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T02:08:12+02:00

Ato0theJ wrote:
UEF does have the sparky though, which has very nice hp compared to t3 aeon and phim engies. It has a comparable buildpower/mass and can survive an arty drop facing much less losses thanks to their gun. Also, no t1 bomber can kill them without dropping at least 3 bombs. It is also the fastest of the engineers and has radar. Nothing is better for cleaning up mass fields.

Hmm... I hadn't thought of that.

I do use the Sparky extensively, for exactly the reasons you describe, but I had never considered it at T3 and above for non-combat purposes only. I suppose UEF buildpower is much like the rest of the faction - most effective when relatively varied across tech level as well as type. That's pretty cool.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 31 Oct 2013, 02:08

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T01:05:51+02:00

UEF does have the sparky though, which has very nice hp compared to t3 aeon and phim engies. It has a comparable buildpower/mass and can survive an arty drop facing much less losses thanks to their gun. Also, no t1 bomber can kill them without dropping at least 3 bombs. It is also the fastest of the engineers and has radar. Nothing is better for cleaning up mass fields.

Statistics: Posted by Ato0theJ — 31 Oct 2013, 01:05

Re: SCU build rate to low?

2013-10-31T00:51:01+02:00

I also remember commenting that giving Seraphim and Aeon better engineers because they don't have engineering stations didn't really make sense. Considering the relative limitations of engineering stations compared to engineers (especially sacrificeable aeon engineers) it takes what is supposed to be a factional advantage (engineering stations) and almost turns it into a disadvantage. (Worse engineers.)

Plus, since the UEF don't have the rapid fabricator option for their SCUs (the drone's measly buildpower isn't even worth it) they really get the short end of the stick from such a setup.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 31 Oct 2013, 00:51