Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-07T03:16:41+02:00

Marko Box wrote:
Firewall, seraphim have a response for every situation, while other factions have obvious glaring weaknesses they dont have. Enemy knowing that you will build only one unit is not a weakness when that unit doubles for a destro and sub. Its acutally harder for other factions cause you need good navy ballance or with one push of a button your destro heavy uef navy becomes sitting duck. Also any unit in isolation is easilly countered, problem is when that destro is used in proper mixed fleet it becomes a nightmare.
It might not be op game winning unit, but its powerfull enough to allow you for prity easy t3 switch to subhunters which are extremly hard to counter.

Of all the factions. UEF is the least capable of dealing with the Seraphim fleet. Back in my GPG days, on 3599 patch, I used to play Seraphim because everyone thought UEF fleet was great and Seraphim T2 were crap. Good to see the community has actually come around.

I have dealt with Seraphim destroyers many times before. They pose no real issue for me. They are directly countered by Aeon and Cybran Destroyers because of their lack of range. For the UEF the only hard naval counter is the Battle Cruiser or the Torpeedo Bomber. Matching Seraphim with UEF navy, with equal tech, is a difficult proposition. The main objective is to isolate/destroy the cruisers. Then kill destroyers with air.

If I were forced into a surface engagement, with UEF, I would need torpedo boats, shield boats, and destroyers. Send the destroyers (and frigates) to close range. But have the torpedo and shield boats sitting back. You want the destroyers outside the shield bubble. Only use the shield to protect from fire directed against the torpedo boats.

Alternatively, send in destroyers/frigates/riptides and engage close range. If they submerge push through and take out any cruisers he has. Then send in the torpedo bombers.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 07 Nov 2013, 03:16

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-06T14:59:27+02:00

Firewall, seraphim have a response for every situation, while other factions have obvious glaring weaknesses they dont have. Enemy knowing that you will build only one unit is not a weakness when that unit doubles for a destro and sub. Its acutally harder for other factions cause you need good navy ballance or with one push of a button your destro heavy uef navy becomes sitting duck. Also any unit in isolation is easilly countered, problem is when that destro is used in proper mixed fleet it becomes a nightmare.
It might not be op game winning unit, but its powerfull enough to allow you for prity easy t3 switch to subhunters which are extremly hard to counter.

Statistics: Posted by Marko Box — 06 Nov 2013, 14:59

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-06T07:57:32+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
It is silly to only think about the balance like most of you guys do. Let's apply your way though , i.e. only thinking about the same cost (I guess you think of mass only and neglect the time factor...

Indeed. But TBH. It is often the best means of measurement when considering a pure attrition scenario. Which, considering the nature of FA, is common.

To truly understand whether a unit (or faction) is OP. We must consider the full range of complexity. In a complicated multi-dimensional analysis. Perhaps it is best to consider un-equal tactical diversity. If a particular faction, unit, or combination of units, leads to a very narrow range of tactical counters. While allowing the user of such units to benefit from a wider range of tactical options. It could be said to be OP. Which typically happens when the unit counter is of equal or greater cost than the units which they are countering... For this reason I would tend to rate all destroyers as being generally OP, compared with T2 submarines.

As a unit in isolation, the Seraphim Destroyer is easily countered. With air units, or longer ranged naval units. It has a diverse range of capabilities which is in keeping with the Seraphim doctrine of multi-functional units. Which is balanced at the factional level. Because the seraphim player has less units to choose from. It also means that to fully utilise the flexibility of this unit (like submerging) it must leave the safety of the combined fleet.

This means that the opposing player, armed with this knowledge, will be developing counters before the destroyers are even deployed. Against a Seraphim player, you always know you will get destroyers.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 06 Nov 2013, 07:57

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-03T14:35:53+02:00

Can u read ?

My fav faction to play navy IS cybran yet I play sera when I have/need to for the reasons I stated.

Too subtle for you ?

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 03 Nov 2013, 14:35

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-03T08:12:04+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
You may imagine that I'm being biaised, but I'm not. My fav naval faction is cybran cause it's much more fun to play.

-_V_- wrote:
One faction has to be the best, why not sera since it has its tradeoff.

Marko Box wrote:
And yet i only see you playing sera.

Statistics: Posted by gnatinator — 03 Nov 2013, 08:12

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-03T00:58:46+02:00

Cantor wrote:
In a real game, mass for mass effectiveness is what matters.

OFC it does, but that's hardly the sole factor. Do not kid yourself.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 03 Nov 2013, 00:58

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-02T18:07:34+02:00

In a real game, mass for mass effectiveness is what matters. The slight advantage in build time won't win you the game at all. Sera can play defensive because they totally own cybran at t3 stage, cybran has to be offensive. That means that their subs need to travel all the way to the enemy, and by that time sera has more than enough destroyers to kill them (or, you know, a single torpedo launcher). So even this extremely tiny theoretical window that cybran are supposed to have does not apply in a real game.

When you have so much trouble to even find a counter to an already known sera force, there is a problem. In other areas of the game, when you have a *known* force, for example 10 auroras and 2 scouts, you can always find a mass effective counter, and *even then* people are saying that it's too strong.

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 02 Nov 2013, 18:07

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-02T16:08:41+02:00

Marko Box wrote:
Also you are forgetting to take into account build time, two subs take a bit less time than a destro. By the time you have two destros cybran will have 5 subs and as you said not enough to be mass efficient.

So you actually say that you can get out 2 subs faster than 1 destro, which is true. Thank you for giving more strength to what I'm trying to state.

I'm not sure how it would work out in game (this is why I'm trying different combos in real games at the moment), but against the typical fleets you see with sera players , it might be more than viable to :

- either get little frigates and invest into more, much t2 subs, almost skipping destros.
- either get less cyb destroyers and make more frigates. Since the sera destro HAS to be above water to win against cybran destros, the frigates are likely to toast the sera.
The ratio, I'm not too sure yet, I'm trying out.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 02 Nov 2013, 16:08

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-02T16:15:29+02:00

Thank you I was hoping for such a response.

The reason why I play sera on side :

- navy not totally hopeless against RESTORERS, and overall AA not too bad. <<--- That's the main reason why I don't play cybran when I know doom will come from the sky.
- double RAS

- awhassa which is currently almost a game winner

Now don't get me wrong. Sera destros are good, stronger. Ofc they are. I simply disagree when people say they're OP. Stronger != OP.
If they were winning by a large margin , then fair enough. Right now it's not the case except 2 stupid scenarios :

- against uef destroyers -> thats a bash
- against a small number of unshielded aeon destroyers -> thats a bash

Give a cybran navy that can survive restorers, I'll be more than happy to quit playing sera on navy! (I'm not going to mix navies to achieve that goal though)

P.S. : watch better cause I try to play cybran as much as possible on side now

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 02 Nov 2013, 16:03

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-02T15:44:56+02:00

And yet i only see you playing sera. You are making nice points there but in practice you know to damn well that sera will roll cybran/aeon without much trouble and be much more cost effective vs uef. And part of the issue is that destroyer. Also you are forgetting to take into account build time, two subs take a bit less time than a destro. By the time you have two destros cybran will have 5 subs and as you said not enough to be mass efficient.

Statistics: Posted by Marko Box — 02 Nov 2013, 15:44

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-02T11:58:06+02:00

Yeah I know its 150% of the cost.

How much time and what cost do you need to counter those 3 subs ? Is it not 2 destros and hence 133% of the subs (group of 3) cost ?
Last time I checked sera didn't have subs, so they need to wait for another full destro to be finished to hold the extra sub.

It is silly to only think about the balance like most of you guys do. Let's apply your way though , i.e. only thinking about the same cost (I guess you think of mass only and neglect the time factor):

100% vs 100%
1 destro vs 2 subs : destro wins with 500-900HP left (the HP is so low, that's already hardly OP)

150% vs 150%
1 destro and a half (that is in shipyard and can't do shit) vs 3 subs : absolute massacre of the destro
=> so what in this window should i cry that the subs are OP ?

Bombarding of the sera destroyer exists but its quite limited due to relief constraints.

You may imagine that I'm being biaised, but I'm not. My fav naval faction is cybran cause it's much more fun to play. I simply object to the destro being OP. Is it better than the other destros? Yes of course. But is it overpowered ? For me no.
Can it defeat the subs for equal ressources ? yes and no , it depends on the timeframe.

One faction has to be the best, why not sera since it has its tradeoff.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 02 Nov 2013, 11:58

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-11-02T07:34:17+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Get 3 subs, and the destro is murdered.

Well duh, 3 submarines would cost 150% of the Seraphim destroyer. This is not balanced.

-_V_- wrote:
They barely win, that's not good. And I tested them more in sandbox. Better not screw around with sera destros against subs.

This is bad balance because for the same cost, the Seraphim destroyer is a far more capable unit (excellent surface combat, can kill hover, bombard, etc.) and yet they still outperform any submarine. The submarine's ONLY role is underwater naval superiority.

Statistics: Posted by gnatinator — 02 Nov 2013, 07:34

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-10-28T02:21:56+02:00

They barely win, that's not good. And I tested them more in sandbox. Better not screw around with sera destros against subs.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 28 Oct 2013, 02:21

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-10-27T23:04:13+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
The beams do miss when you move the ships. Do not not forget that moving the ships make them lose focus as well. In a ideal situation it doesn't matter, but the situation is not always ideal

On top of that let's not forget that sera destros are hopeless against anything else but navy, contrary to other factions. And against subs they have a bad time as well.

They are quite good against subs actually.. since their torpedoes got buffed..

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 27 Oct 2013, 23:04

Re: Thoughts on Seraphim Destroyer?

2013-10-27T15:46:50+02:00

What is the unit tester and where do I get one?

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 27 Oct 2013, 15:46