Forged Alliance Forever

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-30T02:23:21+02:00

Those numbers may be a bit high even for encouraging progression. I would subtract about 100 from each requirement for the ladder ratings because of how much lower ladder ratings are compared to global (there would only be 7 t4 league players and 32 t3). Otherwise these changes are very good.

Statistics: Posted by Swkoll — 30 Oct 2013, 02:23

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-29T20:59:22+02:00

1) I think the main issue with the new system is that all players started from scratch, newcomers as well as veterans. It would be indeed good to have a form of kickstart to spread out players accross the different tiers of the ladder, so that players can actually be matched against players of higher / lower leagues.

I don't know if it's possible, but if there is some way to link the ladder rating (when it's meaningful = "white") with a league the player would start in (at the bottom, with zero score), it would spread players accross the tiers and reward the veteran ladder players.

I thought about something like this:
ladder rating under 1100 : scout league
ladder rating between 1100 and 1400 : t1 league
ladder rating between 1400 and 1700 : t2 league
ladder rating between 1700 and 2000 : t3 league
ladder rating over 2000 : t4 league

2) Additionnally, the points required seem to be too high even for long term ladder, so maybe the required amounts to progress to the next division inside the rank should be cut in half or so (5/7/10/15/25 instead of 10/15/20/25/50).

Statistics: Posted by pip — 29 Oct 2013, 20:59

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-29T20:07:22+02:00

A skills based system is already in place - Trueskill. Why do we need another one?

As for the complaints regarding: Ladder rewards people for spamming games; this is a tad hypocritical since players like Zock achieved their high rating at a time when FAF was far less populated; or players like Chosen who simply deleted their account and started over. The ladder/rankings have been gamed since the beginning - and it's a bit rich to complain to the ladder isn't rewarding you the way you want it to.

Incentivising number of games played is by far the most rational decision for ladder design. We want people to play more games - it means the ladder is more active more of the time - which means people will be able to get a game easier, which means they will play more. If your prerogative is having a number beside your name to make you feel good, then you probably aren't playing the game for the right reasons.

And personally, I think there's been far too much ego at the higher end of the FAF rating spectrum - especially considering how little "pros" have been performing.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 29 Oct 2013, 20:07

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-25T04:05:01+02:00

Zock wrote:
Mr-Smith wrote:ya the amount of games is way to high.
im playing 1-2 ladder games per week so there is no way for me to reach higher leagues.

This is a big problem. Players who don't spam games every day get not encouraged to play more, they get unmotivated because they know they can't archive anything.

And this applies to the majority of players.

Its solveable by putting people into leauges/divisions by ranking at start, like before. This will have the little negative side effects of people getting into a division by "luck", and not beeing able to drop out though, at least if you keep the current no-drop rule.

I don't know if the rule is really good though. Yes it makes people not stop play when they have their "goal" League, but thats maybe also preventable by a point decay.

The problem mentioned above is much bigger imo.

But regardless, the new system is a lot better then the old, with this flaws, or without. The numbers might need finetuning anyway.

I agree with Zock, the last system didn't allow for growth; which this one does very well, but unfortunately, nearly everyone grows very slowly. A system like the previous one where starting ranks are assigned. But no one would start as t4. Everyone would start 1 league behind what their last one was. People will be encouraged to play so that they can get back to and beyondwhat they were before, but not feel like they have to start all over again.

TLDR:
Keep the current system to determine rank, but kick start people byusing ladder rating from last season.

Statistics: Posted by Ato0theJ — 25 Oct 2013, 04:05

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-25T01:18:18+02:00

By the time someone would have reached t4 we will have changed the ladder system again.

Statistics: Posted by Swkoll — 25 Oct 2013, 01:18

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-25T01:10:43+02:00

So... You need 50 points to graduate league scout...75 graduate league T1.... 100 to graduate league T2.... 125 to graduate League T3...
Points are reset after you graduate. So 350 points to become a T4.

You gain 0.5 points for beating a player of inferior league 1 point for same league / 1.5 point for higher league.
You lose 0.5 points for losing to a equal league player.
You lose 1 point for losing to an inferior league player.

Correct me if Im wrong, but its my impression that...

Lets say Zock is playing. Zock is epic, he is fueled by pizza. lets say He has an amazing 75% win ratio. So, he wins three games and gets +3 and loses one game and gets -0.5 Zock averages 2.5 points per 4 games. At this rate, assuming even leagues matches constantly, Zock needs to play 560 ladder games to become a T4 again. That's with a huge 75% win rate.

People with a 50% win ratio, play 2 games get 1 point for win and -0.5 per loss, or average 0.5 points for every two games played. With a 50% win rate, you need 1400 games to become a T4. That's a huge amount. In the two years that FAF has been running, I doubt more then 5 people have that many ladder games. Look at players global game counts. That includes both ladder games, and ranked custom games.

I understand that this is a long term plan, but asking people to play between 560 to 1400 ladder games to become T4 status is insane. I "only" have 674 games played in two years, where about half are ladder matches. To me that's an insanely high number of games played. I would need to play for about 4 to 5 years to get a t4 icon. People like zock with a higher win rate, and who play more games would still need 1-2 years to get to T4 status.

This only gets 'worse' when people in the higher leagues (I.E. Old t4 players) lose more for losses in lower leagues, and gain less for their wins. Not everyone will be able to keep up that many games played.

With these kind of values for league progression, I would predict in a year no one will have a T4 icon. Maybe 3-4 people in two years time.

I would like to voice my opinion and say I think a skill based system is more enjoyable then a system that just rewards grinding hours and hours away.

Statistics: Posted by Tex — 25 Oct 2013, 01:10

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-23T10:44:49+02:00

Ah don't focus on the colors, those were taken nearly randomly in the unit DB. The idea was just that maybe the random casual player like to think he will get a new icon on each new division reached.

Statistics: Posted by Lu_Xun_17 — 23 Oct 2013, 10:44

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-23T10:09:45+02:00

Maybe just having the icon associated to your rank would be enough (for instance : rank blaze = t2 tank icon, ilshavoh = t2 bot icon) and less confusing, even though you would have to mouse over the player's icon to really check his precise rank.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 23 Oct 2013, 10:09

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-23T09:58:17+02:00

that system is really confusing ...but who on earth wants to learn all those icons ?? wouldnt it be a senseless spam of icons??? I am for the colours and variety but... even if there was something like that in gpg i feel like we are overcomplicating it

Statistics: Posted by Bliss — 23 Oct 2013, 09:58

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-23T08:17:00+02:00

Maybe i missunderstood, but the new system show way more the activity and the number of games played than the real skills of the player.

Statistics: Posted by Lu_Xun_17 — 23 Oct 2013, 08:17

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-23T06:06:55+02:00

Why do people want the league system to just show your skill level? Isn't that what your rating is for?

Statistics: Posted by Phthyngoeiac — 23 Oct 2013, 06:06

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-23T03:47:15+02:00

I agree this new league system looks to be a very good idea, and will better award active players (especially if it's not possible to go back in a lower league).

I think we should work on improving the reward system :
The idea is to get a specific icon in chat for each division :
It would give more "little achievements" and would make the chat more beautiful!
we could get something like that for exemple :

Scout league :
t1 scout logo

t1 radar logo

t1 sonar ..

t1 air scout

t1 selen

T1 league
t1 bot (logo)

t1 bomber

t1 tank

t1 transport

t1 frigate

T2 league
t2 T2 aa

t2 submarine

t2 MML

t2 bot

t2 mercy

T3 league
t3 strat bomber

t3 arty

t3 aircraft

t3 heavy tank

t3 battleship

T4 league
t4 logo

commander logo

old gpgnet 2500 rating gold star icon
didn't find it
old gpgnet top10 gold crone icon
(only found the silver one for now)

no more idea for the last one, maybe a i'm special avatar for reaching the higher division of the higher league.

This way, each player could have both short term and long term goal, and could proudly show in chat his new division. I think for any level of player it's an important source of motivation.

Statistics: Posted by Lu_Xun_17 — 23 Oct 2013, 03:47

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-22T19:53:38+02:00

The points required to rank up are based on long term play, not 3 month play. Nobody is supposed to reach Experimental league in 3 month and the Megalith rank is supposed to be for the best of the best and playing everyday players. It's obvious not everyone can reach it, it's not meant to be reached by everyone. These high ranks in the highest league are goals for the top players to reach and continue playing for a long time.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 22 Oct 2013, 19:53

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-22T19:22:35+02:00

IMO the new system is a big improvement. The only thing is as others have mentioned that the number of games you'll need to play to advance a league is immense. Even if you *only* play against players in higher leagues and you win 100% of your games, you need 275 games to reach the exp league. Notice that this is the theoretical best case. In reality you're probably going to play against players in your own league, and your win rate will be around 50% (that's what trueskill tries to do after all -- match even games), so on average per 2 games you'll have 1 win (+1 point) and 1 loss (-0.5 points), so per game on average +0.25 points. That means that you need 1400 games to reach the monkeylord division of the the exp league, and 2200 games to reach the megalith division!! So probably these numbers need to be tweaked a little to make things more achievable, otherwise hardly anybody will actually reach the higher leagues. Another thing is that without a decay there will be league inflation, since for every game played the net total points in the system goes +0.5. Note sure if that is a problem or not, just pointing it out.

The ultimate test of the system will be in a few months if we see more ladder being played or not! I think points gathering can be a big incentive for players to play, especially if it is displayed in a prominent position "You need 3 more points to rank up to Mech Marine" with a progress bar.

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 22 Oct 2013, 19:22

Re: The New Ladder System ???

2013-10-22T18:57:35+02:00

Mr-Smith wrote:
ya the amount of games is way to high.
im playing 1-2 ladder games per week so there is no way for me to reach higher leagues.

This is a big problem. Players who don't spam games every day get not encouraged to play more, they get unmotivated because they know they can't archive anything.

And this applies to the majority of players.

Its solveable by putting people into leauges/divisions by ranking at start, like before. This will have the little negative side effects of people getting into a division by "luck", and not beeing able to drop out though, at least if you keep the current no-drop rule.

I don't know if the rule is really good though. Yes it makes people not stop play when they have their "goal" League, but thats maybe also preventable by a point decay.

The problem mentioned above is much bigger imo.

But regardless, the new system is a lot better then the old, with this flaws, or without. The numbers might need finetuning anyway.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 22 Oct 2013, 18:57