Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-06T18:42:35+02:00

rootbeer23 wrote:
how about this: each little bomb has a little bomb-head
with a little laser producing forward momentum. problem solved?

Yeah! Considering the bombs have contrails (well some of them do) perhaps they are rocket-assisted, and not plain gravity bombs.

What I find more interesting is, given the way that the plane wrecks tumble as they fall, how the wreckage might realistically move if the plane was still thrusting during all or part of its crash.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 06 Oct 2013, 18:42

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-06T15:39:13+02:00

let me get this straight: you are playing a game where giant robots shoot lasers from their heads and you are concerned that
there is a minor inconsistency in the deceleration of certain objects? how about this: each little bomb has a little bomb-head
with a little laser producing forward momentum. problem solved?

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 06 Oct 2013, 15:39

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-06T15:28:52+02:00

But surely the bomb and the bomber should have the same initial velocity vector, given the bomb came from the bomber?

Statistics: Posted by whootle — 06 Oct 2013, 15:28

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-06T11:46:54+02:00

As far as i know there is nodrag in supcom.
but you can set different amount of gravity for unit and projectil if you combine that with differnt velocity vectors you get differnt impact destinations.

Statistics: Posted by Mr-Smith — 06 Oct 2013, 11:46

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-06T08:53:30+02:00

HI rockoe10,

I agree, and considered that. The question is - does the game actually take all that into account though? I'm surprised it would, since I would have expected it simply to treat them all as projectiles (and ignoring drag completely.)

If it really models drag, I'd expect the plane to land well before the bomb, given the way it was tumbling through the air.

Statistics: Posted by whootle — 06 Oct 2013, 08:53

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-05T17:45:23+02:00

Obviously the engine is not perfect, and this would normally not happen, BUT i can think of one REAL instants where this could happen.

Taking into account the horizontal velocity of the plane, it is possible to convert that momentum into vertical velocity through drag on the wings, thus reducing horizontal velocity and increasing vertical velocity. This would mean the plane would hit the ground before the bomb would BUT also mean that the bomb would travel further horizontally than the plan (except in the instance where the plane is still undergoing thrust).

If the plane is still undergoing thrust, and is essentially being "Flown" into the ground, it is possible for the plane to both hit the ground further and before the bomb.

Statistics: Posted by rockoe10 — 05 Oct 2013, 17:45

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-05T06:20:33+02:00

RoundTabler: No, it's not that game. Watch the replay ID posted and find out.

micro2: I agree that what you says makes sense, in that the plane has a shorter path to the ground. But how can this be so if the bomb originates from the plane (presumably from the bottom of the plane) and they are most likely both considered projectiles? As projectiles, they should only be subject to the same types of forces (gravity, and possibly drag - no thrust) and therefore the same trajectory - if the drop and hit was at the same time.

Statistics: Posted by whootle — 05 Oct 2013, 06:20

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-04T20:07:00+02:00

I suspect the engine takes no account of specific horizontal and vertical velocity’s in a true physics sense.

It is more likely that each object has a speed and direction of travel. As the plane travellers less horizontal distance than the bomb it therefore has a shorter path to the ground. So if they travel at the same speed then the plane will hit the ground first. It is likely that the bomb has the same speed as the plane.

I have not looked at the code to confirm any of this. But I think this is the most likely cause.

Statistics: Posted by micro2 — 04 Oct 2013, 20:07

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-04T19:51:04+02:00

Assuming this is the game Gyle casted, I saw several other bomber phenomena that bear consideration. Were you using ground fire at all in the setons Gyle casted (when you cam close to sniping)?

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 04 Oct 2013, 19:51

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-04T19:16:05+02:00

I assure you that I did not misinterpret the sign. I'm not quite sure what gave/gives you that impression.

Regardless, we are certain we are talking about the same thing now. And I'm still seeking clarification/further opinions about my question, since I'm still not really convinced it makes sense. Thanks.

Statistics: Posted by whootle — 04 Oct 2013, 19:16

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-04T18:17:58+02:00

Well, the obvious answer is that in the engine, the bomber falls faster than the bomb. I offer no explanation as to why.
You did misread the sign.
Or rather, you misinterpreted the sign.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 04 Oct 2013, 18:17

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-04T17:43:24+02:00

Gorton, I did not misread the sign - thanks for clarification though. It sounds like you (and your interpretation is that Shadowknight is also) only talking about the vertical plane.

Considering only the vertical plane (and forgetting where the bomb hits) then I agree that the horizontal velocity makes no difference at all as to when the object hits the ground. In which case, you guys are basically saying that bombs have more drag than planes (therefore hitting the ground more slowly, assuming both have zero initial vertical velocity.)

Does that make sense? I would have expected planes to have more drag than bombs, not less. (Given size, the fact that the bomb is dropped streamlines while the plane is tumbling through the air, rather than gliding etc.)

And again, does FA engine even take drag into account? If it doesn't, again, this makes no sense at all. (Unless the bomb had zero initial velocity but the missile that shot down the plane gave it an initial downward velocity.)

Statistics: Posted by whootle — 04 Oct 2013, 17:43

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-04T17:11:25+02:00

Whootle: No. this is the correct use of the signs: 1<2<3. and 3>2>1. The opening is the larger part. So if projectile velocity is smaller than plane velocity it reads like shadowknight said (projectile velocity < plane velocity)
But in general planes crash faster than bombs.

Also, basic physics, the velocity horizontally makes no difference at all to when the object hits the ground.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 04 Oct 2013, 17:11

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-04T16:21:14+02:00

I think you mean projectile velocity > plane velocity? (In the non-vertical plane).

But the initial velocity should be equal. And, in this non-vertical plane, there should be no acceleration (barring drag) since it's a bomb. Would drag be taken into account in the game? Even if so, and the bomb has less drag (which is possible), it still doesn't explain why the plane crash lands before the bomb drops.

(Unless, you argue, that the bomb has less drag in the non-vertical plane (so it travels further) but MORE drag in the vertical plane (so it lands later). But then, you're really really stretching it.)

Statistics: Posted by whootle — 04 Oct 2013, 16:21

Re: Strange bombing phenomenon

2013-10-04T15:12:04+02:00

If projectile velocity < plane velocity, this will happen...

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 04 Oct 2013, 15:12