Forged Alliance Forever

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-11T16:43:16+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
pip wrote:There would be no limit to the number of players in a division in my system but a more limited number of divisions (25), and each name would not be random but determined and based on the strength of the units so that players can intuitively compare their strength and feel their progression.

That's what is not possible as it would required a complete rewrite of the system, that I'm not willing to do.

to bring this back up, pips system without the ranks will work too, and be most likley much better then the current one. The ranks would be a motivation boost for players, but they are not necessary.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 11 Oct 2013, 16:43

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-06T14:58:51+02:00

I really think the best thing really would be tie the gain League Points to the rating

league points = constant value*(your rating/ average rating in that league)
(+ maybe small value to honor regular play, for example the current value which is +1 per leauge i belive, this could even be doubled to make it easier to go up in lower leagues by playing much but the more less the more you go up)

The win chance is calculated anyway so i'm afraid, but i think this is only a few lines to write

About the devision names: i think you went through the DB and read out the names somehow, yet i think you could do just the same and going through a list of names somebody in the thread suggested to name the devisions, as for the use of devisions i dont have a proper sugestion how to make them meaningfull somehow, maybe it could be made as a subleague, but i dunno how that stuff really looks like on the server, asuming that it is currently just a list of players that is sorted to a constant devision size by date of first ranked, i think it could use the same mechanism as the leagues. With the differences that there might be more devisions for one level of play.

About ranks: I think the ranked icon in chat are currently the best thing to express your leauge position
Currently:

Scout (nobody cares that)
T1
T2
T3
T4
(all green)

Some one could make new
Scout Gray background
T1 Green background
T2 Bronze background
T3 Silver backgroud
T4 gold background

and then add stars or little points/things for the devision, all Pilot would have to doo is to change the icons for leauges (which i think isnt a big deal) aaand adding the new ones for the devsions which i hope isnt that difficult if it's just a normal database (and a lot of other stuff regarding the devisions but thats not nessesary imediatelly i think)

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 06 Oct 2013, 14:58

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-06T13:26:24+02:00

pip wrote:
There would be no limit to the number of players in a division in my system but a more limited number of divisions (25), and each name would not be random but determined and based on the strength of the units so that players can intuitively compare their strength and feel their progression.

That's what is not possible as it would required a complete rewrite of the system, that I'm not willing to do.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 06 Oct 2013, 13:26

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-06T13:24:22+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Doing ranks is out of scope sadly. You will have to find a system that fit the current icons/ranks. (the requirements can be changed, but adding more ranks is a lot more work).

As Zock, I didn't understand this part or maybe I should have called my "ranks" names "divisions". In my mind, it's the same thing, divisions already exist in the current ladder. The only differences are that each division is currently limited to 20 players but there are a lot of divisions, and they seem to be randomly named. There would be no limit to the number of players in a division in my system but a more limited number of divisions (25), and each name would not be random but determined and based on the strength of the units so that players can intuitively compare their strength and feel their progression.

The only "rank" I suggested would be the Supreme Commander = the player with the most points.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 06 Oct 2013, 13:24

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-02T14:04:49+02:00

For pips system:

If you advance a league, you don't lose all your points. You keep some percentage. If you reach 0 again, you will fall back in the league below.

And not sure if i misunderstood this, but the new system fits into the rank/icon of scout-t4, it would just replace the randomly assigned divions with the new "ranks" or, a table that displays all players from X to Y points ?

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 02 Oct 2013, 14:04

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-02T11:26:50+02:00

Doing ranks is out of scope sadly. You will have to find a system that fit the current icons/ranks. (the requirements can be changed, but adding more ranks is a lot more work).

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 02 Oct 2013, 11:26

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-02T11:24:17+02:00

FireMessiah wrote:
only thing I have to add is boost the rating increase for winning a ladder game. sometimes ive beaten players 200/300 above me and earned +2/3 because of it.

best way to promote ladder is for people to "earn more" for their efforts.
anything 'official' should be more rewarding that custom ranked games imo.
currently the only thing to 'lose' is win/loss ratio.

I totally agree, penalty for losing should be soft. That's why I initially suggested a system where you don't lose anything by losing, but can progress faster by winning against higher league players. However, my previous suggestion was probably too "easy" (not loss of points for a defeat).

Zock wrote:
I find pips idea is a good start. Not sure if its perfect, but it sounds definitly better then what we have. But all leagues should have the same number of ranks, about 3-5.

But the question is, do you lose points? Not losing points might prevent furstration, but it defeats the purpose of a ladder pretty much to me.

You're very right, it's important that you lose points, though not a lot, if you are defeated. Otherwise, it's too easy to quit the game as soon as you play on a map you don't like, etc.

So, here is a revised system proposal:
- you gain 0.5 points for beating a player of inferior league / 1 point for same league / 1.5 point for higher league
- you lose 0.5 points for losing to a higher or equal league player / you lose 1 point for losing to an inferior league player / you lose 1.5 point for not playing for a week
- you can face opponents only of your own league, the league just below, the league just above
- you move through ranks among your league by earning victory points until you reach the required threshold.
- you move up to the next league once you graduated to all ranks of your league and gain additional victory points required to reach the first rank of the next league.

Each of the 5 leagues would have 5 ranks. Since Nomads will be a part of rank games sometime in the future, I have redone a rank progression including Nomads units names, with 1 unit for each faction, in order of strength.

It could go like this:

T1 league : needs 50 victory points to move on to the T2 league
rank Mole = less than 10 points
rank Mech Marine = more than 10 points, less than 20
rank Aurora = more than 20 points, less than 30
rank Fobo / Zthuee= more than 30, less than 40
rank Assasssin (Nomad tank destroyer) = between 40 and 50

T2 League : needs 75 victory points to move on to the t3 league
rank Blaze = less than 15 points
rank Pillar = between 15 and 30
rank Brute (Nomads main tank) = between 30 and 45
rank Wagner = between 45 and 60
rank Ilshavoh = between 60 and 75

T3 League : needs 100 victory points to move on to Experimental league
rank Loyalist = less than 20 points
rank Nova (Nomads t3 tank) = between 20 and 40 points
rank Othuum = between 40 and 60 points
rank Harbinger = between 60 and 80 points
rank Percival = between 80 and 100 points

Experimental League : needs 150 victory points to move on to the Game Ender league
rank Beamer (Nomads cheap experimental) = less than 25 points
rank Fatboy = between 25 and 50 points
rank Ythotha = between 50 and 75 points
rank Colossus = between 75 and 100 points
rank Megalith = between 100 and 150 points

Game Ender League :
rank Desolator (Nomads satelite arty) = less than 50 points
rank Scathis = between 50 and 100 points
rank Yolona Oss = between 100 and 150
rank Mavor = between 150 and 200
rank Paragon = more than 200

And still the system of Supreme Commander among all Paragon league players : the one with most points is the Supreme Commander, and he is replaced as soon as another Paragon racks up more points.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 02 Oct 2013, 11:24

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-02T08:18:42+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
even me as a student doesnt always have time to play 3 ladder matches all week

Then you aren't a real student

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 02 Oct 2013, 08:18

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-02T08:24:10+02:00

only thing I have to add is boost the rating increase for winning a ladder game.
sometimes ive beaten players 200/300 above me and earned +2/3 because of it.

best way to promote ladder is for people to "earn more" for their efforts.
anything 'official' should be more rewarding that custom ranked games imo.
currently the only thing to 'lose' is win/loss ratio.

I did enjoy the old scoring system, where you lost points for losing.
but ive enjoyed the new ladder ratings when that came into effect,
I do think XP league should be >1800 tho.

I also think the promotion to the next league (if you have the correct rating) should be easier,
being more than 150% of the second place in your league, after a few weeks can be difficult (especially If theres those players who intentionally try to remain at the top in certain leagues), and thus have to wait months for the promotion.
I think something like, when you achieve ranking for promotion, beat 5/10 players (maybe wins in a row, without loss) from the next league ahead of you, to get promoted is fairer.

other than that, I don't think it needs too much adjusting.

discussions on a better map pool or veto system will always continue, everyone has loves and hates.
that's why I think if you promote the ladder in some way, with better rewards, people wont care so much about maps.

Statistics: Posted by FireMessiah — 02 Oct 2013, 08:09

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-02T00:06:13+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
prodromos wrote: I would suggest something like playing at least 3-5 times per week if you don't want to lose this number of points.

that is completely redicolous, even me as a student doesnt always have time to play 3 ladder matches all week: how is one with real work supposed to do this
or you move to vacation.. no games per week is a bad idea

Lol, with an average match lasting 15-20 min(probably less), you dont have time to play even 1 per week?
How ridiculous is to think, this is ridiculous?
Then punishing the poor guy who hasn't played once per month with -60 points, yet letting the lame one who has played just one per month get away with all his/her points intact ?

Anyway I feel this is already an empty discussion(that is, trying to better the rating/leagues system with a goal of attracting more players to ladder), as it has been done pretty much everything that could be done and anything more would be an exercise adversum flumen.

Of the about 7200 players of the leaderboards, only about 2500 have shown an intention to play competitively for 3 or maybe more seasons. Of these 2500 ladder players only a small fraction actually play consistently ladder. What can possibly change the mind of the rest to suddenly join ladder games? Most probably nothing!
But I don't even care, as I consider myself lucky being able to play this good game so many years after being published and having this argument with you.

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 02 Oct 2013, 00:06

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-01T23:02:38+02:00

prodromos wrote:
I would suggest something like playing at least 3-5 times per week if you don't want to lose this number of points.

that is completely redicolous, even me as a student doesnt always have time to play 3 ladder matches all week: how is one with real work supposed to do this
or you move to vacation.. no games per week is a bad idea

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 01 Oct 2013, 23:02

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-01T21:40:23+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
prodromos wrote:1. What points are those, ladder or rating points?

quite obviously league points, rating points would make no sence

prodromos wrote:
2. How many times you must play per week, in order to not lose points

read again

I have read everything you wrote quite well, thank you.
What I had in mind, though, is something more strict and than what you propose. Although I agree on the nature and quantity of points you lose, I think that the requirement to play at least once a month if you don't want to lose points is rather loose. I would suggest something like playing at least 3-5 times per week if you don't want to lose this number of points.

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 01 Oct 2013, 21:40

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-01T21:30:02+02:00

I find pips idea is a good start. Not sure if its perfect, but it sounds definitly better then what we have. But all leagues should have the same number of ranks, about 3-5.

But the question is, do you lose points? Not losing points might prevent furstration, but it defeats the purpose of a ladder pretty much to me.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 01 Oct 2013, 21:30

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-01T17:46:43+02:00

prodromos wrote:
1. What points are those, ladder or rating points?

quite obviously league points, rating points would make no sence

prodromos wrote:
2. How many times you must play per week, in order to not lose points

read again

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 01 Oct 2013, 17:46

Re: The Application of Starcraft Leagues to FAF

2013-10-01T17:17:11+02:00

ColonelSheppard wrote:
How about:
- you gain/lose 10 points for each win
- you gain/lose +/- % points for beeing +/- % above/under the average trueskill rating in your leauge
- you gain/lose +/- % points for a +/- % higher/lower rated player
- you lose - 15 points per week if you dont play for 1 month

What Shepard says. Perhaps some clarifications should be made regarding the last point, I.e.
1. What points are those, ladder or rating points?
2. How many times you must play per week, in order to not lose points
etc.

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 01 Oct 2013, 17:17