Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-27T17:27:25+02:00

SC-Account wrote:
I like the idea of strat subs having a TML launcher storing ~10 missiles with normal damage and capable of rapid launch. To sneak such a thing in could rly be devastating.

This would be one of the "better alternatives" I was referring to. I don't know that it is possible to have a unit build and store both strategic and tactical missiles at the same time (I doubt it) but, considering that the subs are a mobile version of strategic missile launcher silos, it would make the most sense for them to be mobile versions of tactical missile launcher silos as well. Perhaps there would be a way to allow a player to switch his subs between making one type of missile or the other, a la the UEF ACU?

Firewall wrote:
With Attack Subs and Missile Subs. In so doing, one's fleet became invunerable to shore artillery and surface gunfire. Assuming you also had Air Superiority, the only real threat to the submarine force was the destroyer. Which could be dealt with by putting about 4 missile subs into the mix.

Granted, it is not a cost effective way of picking off Destroyers. But it does increase the tactical flexibility of the formation as a whole. In allowing submarine groups to deal with Destroyers. Allowing the attack subs to close range and decimate the now helpless battlegroup. It was also a good way of picking off pursuing destroyers before they can get into depthcharge range. It is not the actual cost/DPS which is the biggest concern, but rather, the value which it adds to the submarine force as a whole.

With the missile sub, the submarine force had the ability to sneak within the radius of shore artillery and without detection by radar. Which when combined with diversionary tactics, and ASF top-cover, can work wonders... But of course, with T2 artillery being more costly in FA, this utility was reduced.

It is not only the rise in price of T2 artillery that makes this tactic less useful, but also the introduction of T2 sub hunters. In Vanilla SC Destroyers could relatively easily defeat an all submersible force because they overpowered weak T1 attack subs. Now, one hardly needs tactical missiles from strategic subs to keep destroyers at bay, T2 sub hunters can defeat destroyers on their own. So in terms of adding value to an all-submersible force, even if they did still have homing missiles, strategic subs are far less necessary and useful in that role than they were before. As you said, things are very different now.

ShadowKnight wrote:
While it might not be appropriate in many ways, Mycen, I'd really like to see Firewall's semi-tracking cruise missiles put onto the StratSubs, for one reason above all others - It would make them feel that bit more special. They would be the only unit in the game with tracking cruise missiles. ... StratSubs need to hit moving targets and should be capable of doing so, I think. As for TMD? Meh, give the missiles 6 HP each, just to be that bit more special

Hmm... I can't tell if you're entirely serious toward the end there, but this is the attitude that I am afraid of. Randomly adding features and changing things around just to make a unit more popular or powerful or "special" is a slippery slope. You would give them extra-tough missiles just to make them more useful? But their missiles are little different from other tactical missiles, why should they be harder to shoot down? It is silly to create situations where a player can see a tactical missile coming and know to build a TMD, but for other identical-looking missiles they'll need two or three TMD.

As far as I can see there is hardly any "need" for them to hit moving targets, and they're already the only units that can carry nuclear missiles while being mobile and invulnerable to most forms of attack. Why is that not "special" enough?

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Whatever the plan with the Strategic Sub is, there are two things to consider:

1. You don't want the sub to become a counterpart of the Torrent Missile Ship, then the Torrent would be useless and its uniqueness in the Aeon arsenal will be ruined.

Exatcly! That is why making it function as a normal TML silo would be appropriate, but simply having it rapid-fire tactical missiles like a UEF or seraphim cruiser would not.

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
2. The design of the Strategic missiles should keep an advantage and a disadvantage compared to the SML. The current advantages are that you can (almost) simultaniously launch three missiles from one sub and that you can evacuate the weapon should you come under attack, the current disadvantages are that assisting will give away that you've got a sub (not that assisting strategic weapons is a good idea, but still) and that you can't use adjecency.

Also, the submarine missiles do less damage and have a limited range. But are we discussing changing the way their strategic missiles function? Because I think that there are few changes (aside from a move closer to their original range) that would be necessary there - they work pretty well now that their cost has been adjusted.

Anaryl wrote:
Ive got sone substantial reworks for the SMS lined up for submission for this balance patch. If you guys see cool mods or have ideas I'd be keen to hear them, but perhaps after I finish this one.

As a unit that has always been a favorite of mine, I'm very interested to see what your changes entail.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 27 Sep 2013, 17:27

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-27T17:12:35+02:00

Whatever the plan with the Strategic Sub is, there are two things to consider:

1. You don't want the sub to become a counterpart of the Torrent Missile Ship, then the Torrent would be useless and its uniqueness in the Aeon arsenal will be ruined.
2. The design of the Strategic missiles should keep an advantage and a disadvantage compared to the SML. The current advantages are that you can (almost) simultaniously launch three missiles from one sub and that you can evacuate the weapon should you come under attack, the current disadvantages are that assisting will give away that you've got a sub (not that assisting strategic weapons is a good idea, but still) and that you can't use adjecency.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 27 Sep 2013, 17:12

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-27T16:05:42+02:00

Ive got sone substantial reworks for the SMS lined up for submission for this balance patch. If you guys see cool mods or have ideas I'd be keen to hear them, but perhaps after I finish this one.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 27 Sep 2013, 16:05

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-27T13:25:22+02:00

I like the idea of strat subs having a TML launcher storing ~10 missiles with normal damage and capable of rapid launch. To sneak such a thing in could rly be devastating.

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 27 Sep 2013, 13:25

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-27T06:46:34+02:00

Mycen wrote:
They have such a weapon because the designers of the game rightly thought it would be cool to have a submarine that launches missiles. Only afterward did it become apparent that the way they had configured said submarine meant the missiles were relatively useless. But usually designers don't put as much thought into little things like that as dedicated fans do several years after the fact, so it never got addressed.

You do need naval control to get the missiles into range, true, but (excessive range reductions of the latest patch aside) the missile subs aren't meant to get that close to large enemy concentrations anyway.

Essentially, The strategic missile sub, as concieved by the game creators functioned very much as advertised. However, what we are seeing is a legacy issue with the blanket application of non-homing missiles.

According to the Vanilla SC metagame. A less common (but viable) counter-strategy to the conventional Destroyer/Cruiser surface battlegroup was to go entierly submersible. With Attack Subs and Missile Subs. In so doing, one's fleet became invunerable to shore artillery and surface gunfire. Assuming you also had Air Superiority, the only real threat to the submarine force was the destroyer. Which could be dealt with by putting about 4 missile subs into the mix.

Granted, it is not a cost effective way of picking off Destroyers. But it does increase the tactical flexibility of the formation as a whole. In allowing submarine groups to deal with Destroyers. Allowing the attack subs to close range and decimate the now helpless battlegroup. It was also a good way of picking off pursuing destroyers before they can get into depthcharge range. It is not the actual cost/DPS which is the biggest concern, but rather, the value which it adds to the submarine force as a whole.

With the missile sub, the submarine force had the ability to sneak within the radius of shore artillery and without detection by radar. Which when combined with diversionary tactics, and ASF top-cover, can work wonders... But of course, with T2 artillery being more costly in FA, this utility was reduced.

Mycen wrote:
Although, as I mentioned above, this would likely not address the strat sub tac missile problem at all, it would be an interesting 'fix' were it applied to ALL tactical missiles.

Glad you agree... The trick with this fix is to have the turn rate so slow that it will work against the tracking. Such that a microed unit will cause the missile to miss... Mind you, there could be some interesting flight paths where a missile will hit 'thin air' and then circle round for another pass. Possibly impacting on the ground, other units or shields. I'd suggest a flight time limitation would also be necessary.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 27 Sep 2013, 06:46

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-25T15:39:53+02:00

While it might not be appropriate in many ways, Mycen, I'd really like to see Firewall's semi-tracking cruise missiles put onto the StratSubs, for one reason above all others - It would make them feel that bit more special. They would be the only unit in the game with tracking cruise missiles. Also, one must make the distinction between manually fired TMLs which should never be homing, and other cruise missiles, depending on their role. StratSubs need to hit moving targets and should be capable of doing so, I think. As for TMD? Meh, give the missiles 6 HP each, just to be that bit more special

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 25 Sep 2013, 15:39

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-25T13:52:12+02:00

They have such a weapon because the designers of the game rightly thought it would be cool to have a submarine that launches missiles. Only afterward did it become apparent that the way they had configured said submarine meant the missiles were relatively useless. But usually designers don't put as much thought into little things like that as dedicated fans do several years after the fact, so it never got addressed.

You do need naval control to get the missiles into range, true, but (excessive range reductions of the latest patch aside) the missile subs aren't meant to get that close to large enemy concentrations anyway. Their tactical missiles are largely to give them something to do while they build nukes. On a map like setons or betrayal ocean we don't see this being useful, but on a map like roanoke or seraphim glaciers it is relatively easy for the main naval engagement to occur elsewhere while the subs pick off outlying targets as they sneak around - unless the enemy builds TMD everywhere to protect against a unit that is likely not to appear in that role in the first place. That this use of their weapons will expose them to enemy attention and retaliation is obvious, the same with any unit.

But even if the only concern is to make the tactical missiles useful, I doubt that making the homing would accomplish that anyway. With their fire cycle one needs only one TMD to stop them, and yet I see people talking about them attacking battleships with their homing missiles - as if the two TMD that each battleship has is going to mean nothing.

The strat sub TML could be useful for attacking destroyers if is was homing, but almost every other ship even remotely interesting as a target is going to have its own TMD, and by the time one is putting strat subs on the field to begin with there ought to be plenty of cruisers around any ships that are lacking in their own defenses, so I really don't see how homing would make them more effective in the naval battlespace, even if it were appropriate. Sure, you could use them to ambush unescorted destroyers that are a fifth of their cost, but... is that useful?

There are better solutions to this problem.

Firewall wrote:
Slight tracking could be achieved by:

1. Allowing the missile aim to lead the target;
2. Using a tracking missile with very slow turn rates.

The aim would be to allow general targeting of moving objects, but prevent missile correction on the terminal approach. So micro is still effective.

Although, as I mentioned above, this would likely not address the strat sub tac missile problem at all, it would be an interesting 'fix' were it applied to ALL tactical missiles.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 25 Sep 2013, 13:52

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-24T14:52:12+02:00

Mycen wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't like missile tracking? I remember this same conversation when people wanted a homing toggle on Aeon/Sera TMLs. Weapon classes should all behave the same way, there shouldn't be one type of TML that homes when no others do.

The idea about being able to build separate tac missile or strat missile subs would be preferable to that, even given how much I hate creating new units in the core game.

I'm not a fan of missile tracking either. BUT. Strat subs are really expensive, need to be protected, and, for those reasons, their missiles are not as useful as I would like (I have never seen these missiles used in game). Why do they have a weapon that can't hit much except shore bombardment, when you need naval control to get them there?

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 24 Sep 2013, 14:52

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-24T13:42:42+02:00

Firewall wrote:
I agree with non-homing tactical missile behaviour generally. But in the case of the T3 missile sub the effect has been to totally strip it of any conventional warfare application.

Not at all true. After all, no one is arguing that Governors or Ithaluas need homing missiles, because there is a clear role for 'dumb' missiles on ships: shore bombardment. The reason they are not useful on strat subs is not because all of its targets are moving - considering that the subs lack even a modest defensive weapon, obviously they shouldn't be participating in naval engagements. It is because the platform is costed like the nuke launcher it is, and the missiles are a secondary weapon that is not useful enough on their own to justify that cost. No one builds a fatboy for the riot guns, even though they have incredible damage output. The missiles seem useless only because the subs are so expensive.

Firewall wrote:
What if we make the missiles homing, but only able to be fired when surfaced?

That is quite arbitrary, especially considering that they have been able to fire while submerged forever and ever.

Firewall wrote:
Furthermore, if intel coverage is lost then the missile looses its tracking capability?

Putting aside the appropriateness of this idea for the moment, is this even possible?

Firewall wrote:
At the same time the submarine would need to expose itself to radar and surface fire to use this weapon. Which means sending units to intercept it would force it to submerge. Now THAT would be an interesting game dynamic.

It would not be interesting, it would be annoying. That you have to change the sub's fire orders when you don't want to use its tac missiles is already a source of frustration and complaint. Having to submerge/surface the sub to even be able to fire would be the same tedium, only with more dire consequences for your sub.

Almost any of the other ideas are better than adding homing missiles. Increasing the damage of each missile to that of a regular tactical missile would be one. Allowing the subs to function as a normal TML silo and launch their tac missiles as quickly as they can nukes would be another. Splitting tactical and nuclear subs into two differently costed units would be a third. There were a few more that I remember, but I can't think of them now.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 24 Sep 2013, 13:42

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-24T07:21:51+02:00

I agree with non-homing tactical missile behaviour generally. But in the case of the T3 missile sub the effect has been to totally strip it of any conventional warfare application.

The missile submarine is unique in the environment in which it operates. Because all of its targets are moving. A non-tracking missile is pointless, or worse, a liability.

Perhaps there are some alterations which could balance the capability. What if we make the missiles homing, but only able to be fired when surfaced? Furthermore, if intel coverage is lost then the missile looses its tracking capability? Hence, if stealth is activated, or sonar/radar lost, then it becomes a dumb warhead. At the same time the submarine would need to expose itself to radar and surface fire to use this weapon. Which means sending units to intercept it would force it to submerge. Now THAT would be an interesting game dynamic.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 24 Sep 2013, 07:21

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-24T06:48:09+02:00

Am I the only one who doesn't like missile tracking? I remember this same conversation when people wanted a homing toggle on Aeon/Sera TMLs. Weapon classes should all behave the same way, there shouldn't be one type of TML that homes when no others do.

The idea about being able to build separate tac missile or strat missile subs would be preferable to that, even given how much I hate creating new units in the core game.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 24 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-23T20:29:57+02:00

Slight tracking could be achieved by:

1. Allowing the missile aim to lead the target;
2. Using a tracking missile with very slow turn rates.

The aim would be to allow general targeting of moving objects, but prevent missile correction on the terminal approach. So micro is still effective.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 23 Sep 2013, 20:29

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-23T17:10:10+02:00

I like the idea of strat subs firing high speed missiles with slight tracking... its enough to hit the big t3 ships, but everything else can dodge

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 23 Sep 2013, 17:10

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-23T16:18:52+02:00

I would rather have the subs behave as mobile TML's than a mobile nuke launcher anyway. But perhaps that is just me.

Statistics: Posted by Niernen — 23 Sep 2013, 16:18

Re: Make the nuke sub tactical missle behave like a tml

2013-09-23T15:48:40+02:00

tracking missles were far more usefull
now its even better to toggle atack mode so they dont know you have a strat sub

Statistics: Posted by Mr-Smith — 23 Sep 2013, 15:48