Forged Alliance Forever

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-26T15:54:40+02:00

As the Cybran player, if you desperatly need to hold in the sea, you can bring lower priority targets with your navy: t1 frigates, t1 subs, even wagners to force seraphin subhunters to fire on them, then engage with stealthy t2 subhunters. But it works well only when enemy's attention is elsewhere. If you defend from subhunters you can try to place HARMS behind the wall of something with torp defence(even bricks).

As the aeon player, you can try to defend your units with t3 sonar. It has pretty good torp defence. You can also go t2 landspam. Floating units are immortal for those subhunters, so you can to place blazes above sera subs, and use torp bombers(solarces).

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 26 Jul 2013, 15:54

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-08T05:24:39+02:00

I think Cybran is quite screwed. But their T2 submarine has some goodies. You should try breaking off with hit and run attacks on weak flanks. The submarines are stealthed, you coming in behind to hit exposed cruisers could do some good. The stealth allows you to mitigate the T3 sub range, but don't count on it for drawn out battles. I'd use them for small gains, and annoying hit and run attacks. More T3 subs in pursuit is less subs yor main fleet will need to deal with. Taking out the cruisers wil make him more vunerable to Air. So that should be the submarines primary target.

Aeon have a couple of tricks. The first is hover shield spam with Vesper T2 Subs. A key difference with the Vesper is that it has better anti-torp, but lower DPS then its Cybran equivalent. So there is some scope for building T1/T2 Sub spam, and running straight into his T3 Subs. The Vespers will offer some protection to the T1 subs, which do a lot of damage up close. This only works in the opening exchanges. Not against numbers. The Exodus is comparible with the Vesper for Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW), With the addition of a surface cannon, but the disadvantage of slower speed. If your ASW is tied to Battleships, use the Exodus. If you need to chase, use the Vesper.

For numbers, Aeon need to use the tempest and shields.Tempest torps outrange the T3 sub, and shields tank the damage... If the Seraphim switches up to a T3 Sub + Shield combo. Aeon need to build the Absolver, which will defeat this countermeasure. Aeon can also build T2 hover, which can press the attack, and render the submarine pointless. Sometimes the best way to defeat the T3 subs is to not give them a target in the first place. Aeon have anti-naval capabilities in their land and air units, so they will be more reliant on combined arms tactics.

UEF generally use the Adlantis to deal ranged damage, Bulwarks to take fire, and Coopers to stop any torps which get through. So they are the best suited navy for dealing with Seraphim.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 08 Jul 2013, 05:24

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-07T13:33:14+02:00

I feel that only the t3 shields can turn the tide severely in favor of sera.

With HARMS you can hold good enough with support of BS and t2 subs to sneak attack the t3 subs. Still in a scenario with equal mass or close.

Win probably not. But let's not forget that as CYBRAN you are NOT supposed to wait so long to win. That's wrong faction to do it.
As UEF t2 how do you counter cybran t2 ? Shields don't really make up for the short range of the destroyers.

As cybran you should win with t2 navy or at least get the upper hand on your opponent at that stage and if you cant finish it, get the reclaim back to overcome him with your eco boosted by the reclaim.

Different factions, different play style.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 07 Jul 2013, 13:33

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-07T12:19:44+02:00

I know it's bullshit but you have to kill him before he gets too many.

A decent mix against this is lots of mermaids (for anti-torp/stealth) mixed with 3-4 T2 Cybran subs per T3 Sera sub. Focus fire down each sub. You pretty much are required to spend more Eco to kill so try to finish it quick.

RoundTabler wrote:
...cybran t3 nuke sub...

Heh. Spend 4x the Eco to get 12% more range and bad DPS.

Stefan2000 wrote:
Maybe try to capture one of their engies and make some subs of your own?

The universal "counter" to any imba.

Statistics: Posted by gnatinator — 07 Jul 2013, 12:19

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-07T10:22:14+02:00

Feint with torp bombers and move in with cloaked destroyers when they surface to shoot at you, the TD on them and their escorting mermaids should do something.

Strat bombers can also deal quite some pain if the bad guys are surfaced.

Statistics: Posted by Julia-358 — 07 Jul 2013, 10:22

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-06T13:03:22+02:00

i would not build harms against t3 subs unless you have 10 - 20 sacu´s....

as cybran just spam stealth boats and destoryers, bunch them together and not a single torp will hit even if he has 10 or 20 subs. keep him at distance with battleships and try to groundbomb them. subs are not as good as destoryers against t3 subs because their dorp defence sucks. if you have a big groub they will do the job too....

as uef build torpboats, behind them atlantis and battleships to ground fire

the tempest is really the best unit against t3 subs because of it splash damage its easy to hit them

but best counter against t3 subs is to just do not let him build them... . if he goes early t3 on setons his eco will be not enough to produce enough to kill your fleet.

Statistics: Posted by ICKEN — 06 Jul 2013, 13:03

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-06T00:37:10+02:00

Joly wrote:
But there is no point in defending the torpedoes if you cant fire back... t3 sub outrange everything but HARMS(which is stationary and a sitting duck for cruiser), and they have enough speed to kite

No. Atlantis, cybran t3 nuke sub, maybe others outrange them.

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 06 Jul 2013, 00:37

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-05T22:35:40+02:00

"Now; don't take these as solid ideas for what to do against t3 subhunters in your setons games - I'm giving you this info to help you come up with ways of defending and attacking against sera t3 navel"
??? Miss that part?
lol.
Mix up your navy - don't run head long into t3 subs - focus fire at edge of range - run back to harms (umm, tmd too if they are groundfireing with cruisers lol)
But using a lot of stealth boats in your mix is a great (CHEAP) way of having your navy not die epically fast. Of course you do need other navel units to do damage with

Statistics: Posted by VoiceofReason — 05 Jul 2013, 22:35

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-05T22:03:49+02:00

Maybe try to capture one of their engies and make some subs of your own?

Statistics: Posted by StefanD_ — 05 Jul 2013, 22:03

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-05T21:49:29+02:00

But there is no point in defending the torpedoes if you cant fire back... t3 sub outrange everything but HARMS(which is stationary and a sitting duck for cruiser), and they have enough speed to kite

Statistics: Posted by Joly — 05 Jul 2013, 21:49

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-05T18:22:12+02:00

Mass for mass you can spit out 5 mermaids(t2 cybran stealth boat) per one t3 subhunter

Not saying to do that - but I just tested and 2 mermaids with its torp defense can counter the torps off 1 t3 subhunter (you need to keep the two stealth boats VERY CLOSE to eachother, but either way for the cost you can easily pump out enough especially when 2to1 seems to be okay, I'd say 3 would be perfect.

Also, just checked the database. The Salem (t2 cybran destroyer) HAS THE EXACTLY same anti torp stats. So 1 stealth boat, and 1 Salem should be entirely unaffected by 1 sera t3 subhunter (also costs a bit less and slightly less builttime)

Now; don't take these as solid ideas for what to do against t3 subhunters in your setons games - I'm giving you this info to help you come up with ways of defending and attacking against sera t3 navel

In phantom games, to deal with t3 sera subs I usually do a harm spam/creep + stealthboats25%/t2subs45%/salems30%. Also IF I can afford it, I've found megaliths are very useful in the lategame navel - They take quite the beating/ have good antitorp defense, and I usually try to keep my navel (subs specifically) behind, or grouped closely so that all the antitorp plays its part.

Statistics: Posted by VoiceofReason — 05 Jul 2013, 18:22

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-05T17:58:26+02:00

As an experienced setons naval player, I still defend that those subs are truly imba... there is nothing that is really cost effective and pratical at stopping them. Your best choices are:
Cybran: Harms(they can still be easily taken down easily by big numbers and by cruiser/Battleship ground fire), but they only buy you time
Aeon: Tempest+t2 shields (works pretty well against the subs especially with ground fire, but it costs 20k+mass and its big and gets stuck everywhere so every other sera ship and t1 arty will just rape it very easily)
UEF: Atlantis+bullwark+cooper for torp defense(best option but still looses mass to mass to t3 shields+t3subs+t2dests of sera)

So the conclusion is you either kill them before they get to t3 or you just bow to the might of the imba sub

Statistics: Posted by Joly — 05 Jul 2013, 17:58

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-05T17:33:05+02:00

In numbers it should work, in theory.

You can get 3 or 4 coopers for 1 t3 subhunter, and can get them quicker, whereas an atlantis is tens of thousands of mass.

The atlantis actually outranges the subhunters, but its 4 slower. That can't kite.

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 05 Jul 2013, 17:33

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-05T16:37:48+02:00

1 speed more isnt really enough to get not kited, especially since coopers are very vulnerable to surface weapons

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 05 Jul 2013, 16:37

Re: How to counter sera t3 subs

2013-07-05T16:35:10+02:00

Coopers are faster - you can't kite them well.

Statistics: Posted by RoundTabler — 05 Jul 2013, 16:35