Forged Alliance Forever

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-30T16:12:57+02:00

The free hitpoints a unit gains when vetting up is something that always felt strange and unlogical to me.
I wouldnt mind if that veterancy free hp bonus would be replaced by something more logical.
Thats one reason why i made this thread.

Statistics: Posted by laPPen — 30 Apr 2013, 16:12

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-30T00:09:35+02:00

Bibblson wrote:
Now its pretty much luck, if you gc gets veterancy just when it gets low hp. Either an experimental is meh or it rapes all you ever loved...

"Pretty much luck"? Not at all.

If you see an experimental coming you move fodder units out of the way and plan a counterstrike that will destroy it. If you haven't seen it coming with enough time to do any of those things, then scout better. While there is a luck component involved when you've gotten a T4 down to a few hundred HP, it's no more than any of the many other luck based factors in the game.

Usually you will either be prepared to defend against the T4 or not. If you are, then it won't get a chance to gain a lot of veterancy, and if you aren't then you shouldn't be able to just whittle it away with whatever you have lying around - you should get rolled over.

Flipper wrote:
I think the ONLY change that NEEDS to be made is that when a unit acquires a new level of veterancy, it's MAX hit points be increased, but it's CURRENT hit points should remain the same. All other modifiers such as damage or regen rate could be left as is and be granted immediately. There is really no logical reason that killing that one scout should grant a GC an instant HP boost. That's just plain silly. I'd be ok with veterancy going away completeley. These are ROBOTS.

My 2 cents.

Veterancy rewards micromanagement and allows large single units to be as useful as many smaller units. It was never a concept that tracked in-universe, it is entirely a gameplay thing. And as was pointed out, removing the immediate gain in HP would make veterancy almost entirely useless. That would mean that to take advantage of veterancy you would have to withdraw your experimental from the field, bring it back to your base, repair it, then send it back out. Rather than doing all of that, it would be easier to just build another one. Which would make veterancy pointless.

People may think they like the idea of units gaining enough of a regen bonus that they don't need the HP buff, but believe me, it would only exacerbate the 'problem' of experimentals being hard to stop. As it is now, T4s that are unopposed can continue on a rampage for a good while, but if they come up against opposition they are not that much more difficult to kill than they would be without veterancy. (They'll have extra HP, but they'll also have lost HP in combat.) But if you buffed their regen dramatically, even without an HP boost, stopping them would require an all-or-nothing attack that destroys them in one go. Otherwise they'll just be back at full health by the time they are next engaged.

Wakke wrote:
I actually meant repairing with engies becoming more viable (ie, way, way cheaper).

Not a bad idea, but saying that veterancy could be changed if this were changed is putting the cart before the horse. We have to figure out how repair can/should/will be made more viable before we can talk about how other stuff can be changed around that.

Plus, it still wouldn't address the time costs of withdrawing the unit to be repaired.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 30 Apr 2013, 00:09

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-29T21:01:35+02:00

ZaphodX wrote:
Wakke wrote:However, coupled with a more viable repair, it could be useful...

I could live with it if you got killer regen that rewarded keeping the units alive longer.

I actually meant repairing with engies becoming more viable (ie, way, way cheaper).

Statistics: Posted by Wakke — 29 Apr 2013, 21:01

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-29T20:55:40+02:00

In my opinion, if we buff the repair veterancy, its enough. Neither more max hp, or a hp gain.

Now its pretty much luck, if you gc gets veterancy just when it gets low hp. Either an experimental is meh or it rapes all you ever loved...

I think Experimentals could need a buff without that veterancy and the acu nees some thoughts too.

Statistics: Posted by Bibblson — 29 Apr 2013, 20:55

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-29T19:41:15+02:00

Wakke wrote:
ZaphodX wrote:
Flipper wrote:I think the ONLY change that NEEDS to be made is that when a unit acquires a new level of veterancy, it's MAX hit points be increased, but it's CURRENT hit points should remain the same.

That would make veterancy almost completely useless. The only real gain would be a minuscule amount of additional regen.

However, coupled with a more viable repair, it could be useful...

I could live with it if you got killer regen that rewarded keeping the units alive longer.

Statistics: Posted by ZaphodX — 29 Apr 2013, 19:41

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-29T19:37:17+02:00

ZaphodX wrote:
Flipper wrote:I think the ONLY change that NEEDS to be made is that when a unit acquires a new level of veterancy, it's MAX hit points be increased, but it's CURRENT hit points should remain the same.

That would make veterancy almost completely useless. The only real gain would be a minuscule amount of additional regen.

However, coupled with a more viable repair, it could be useful...

Statistics: Posted by Wakke — 29 Apr 2013, 19:37

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-29T19:33:21+02:00

Flipper wrote:
I think the ONLY change that NEEDS to be made is that when a unit acquires a new level of veterancy, it's MAX hit points be increased, but it's CURRENT hit points should remain the same.

That would make veterancy almost completely useless. The only real gain would be a minuscule amount of additional regen.

Statistics: Posted by ZaphodX — 29 Apr 2013, 19:33

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-29T19:31:40+02:00

I think the ONLY change that NEEDS to be made is that when a unit acquires a new level of veterancy, it's MAX hit points be increased, but it's CURRENT hit points should remain the same. All other modifiers such as damage or regen rate could be left as is and be granted immediately. There is really no logical reason that killing that one scout should grant a GC an instant HP boost. That's just plain silly. I'd be ok with veterancy going away completeley. These are ROBOTS.

My 2 cents.

Statistics: Posted by Flipper — 29 Apr 2013, 19:31

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-29T18:38:16+02:00

Krapougnak wrote:
I'm not a big fan of veterancy too, wouldn't the game be better without it ? It can be easily removed with a few lines of code if we wanted to... .

I don't think the game would be better without it. Veterancy allows a more tactically oriented player to match a more economically oriented player. It emphasizes micro and how tactical maneuvering can be beneficial. It's somewhat artificial, but hey - it's a game.

I've always understood the whole veterancy system to be a more abstract concept, meant primarily to allow experimentals to be fieldable without being utterly obliterated by T1 stuff. I think it's good that you can't realistically counter a T4 bot by pouring out a few hundred tanks with your T3 economy as soon as you see it heading toward you, and it's good that you have to think about whether you want to leave your engineering force in the path of that incoming chicken.

I just wish it was called something other than 'veterancy', because this:

samoja wrote:
That are all just a bunch of robots no, human beings get better with training and knowledge collected, however even if we allowed for a progressive CPU that learns from experience it would be rely easy to copy those files and apply it to all the other units,

SC-Account wrote:
I would prefer an endless level up system with a logarithmic buff curve > the higher you get the less % bonus you get. That way veterancy would never stop being useful, but would not be insane either.

Going about implementing this change seems like a waste of time to me. That is pretty much how it works now, it's just that the usefulness cutoff is more concrete. But it's the same thing in the end: After a certain point veterancy provides little/no additional benefit.

I think samoja had the best idea when he said:

In essence i think veterancy is good gamplay concept but has no real anchor in reality and see no reason why we should buff that already unrealistic complex.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 29 Apr 2013, 18:38

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-28T08:32:43+02:00

I'm not a big fan of veterancy too, wouldn't the game be better without it ? It can be easily removed with a few lines of code if we wanted to... .

Statistics: Posted by Krapougnak — 28 Apr 2013, 08:32

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-28T04:10:32+02:00

You got a point there, although killing a GC will already give more vet than killing a T1 engineer.

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 28 Apr 2013, 04:10

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-27T21:00:06+02:00

Personally i never rely understood canon justification for veterancy. That are all just a bunch of robots no, human beings get better with training and knowledge collected, however even if we allowed for a progressive CPU that learns from experience it would be rely easy to copy those files and apply it to all the other units, and it still does not explain how a vet unit can take more punishment and regenerate its hitpoints. We could also argue that veteran units take something from destroyed enemies(like a powercore), but it still does not explain why killing a t1 engie or GC nets exactly the same veterancy. In essence i think veterancy is good gamplay concept but has no real anchor in reality and see no reason why we should buff that already unrealistic complex.

Statistics: Posted by samoja — 27 Apr 2013, 21:00

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-27T20:47:29+02:00

I never said they should look like a gc

Statistics: Posted by laPPen — 27 Apr 2013, 20:47

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-27T20:07:43+02:00

I agree with Sc- with all his points

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 27 Apr 2013, 20:07

Re: ideas about veterancy

2013-04-27T20:01:51+02:00

Bricks getting GC's over time seems a bit illogical to me. I would prefer an endless level up system with a logarithmic buff curve > the higher you get the less % bonus you get. That way veterancy would never stop being useful, but would not be insane either. In addition units could get a heal for each level up - that should make it very rewarding to keep your units alive and leveling without giving you an invulnerable killer army.

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 27 Apr 2013, 20:01