Forged Alliance Forever

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-25T10:14:01+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
I understand what you are saying, and it's an hidden mechanic limiting efficiency without any visual feedback.

hidden mechanic without any visual feedback. yes you are right. there should be value shown "...% wasted" or "efficiency at ...%"

limiting efficiency. no thats not what i want. It shouldnt "limit efficiency" it should balance efficiency.

My sugestions should make assisting with t1 engies in short run cost effective in the long run a factory unassisted or asssited by a few t3 angies should be the most cost effective.

You have this pattern in the whole game.

I also had another idea/conzept that would be nice but has nothing to do with the engis. The longer a factory is producing units(time spent while building units or just the age of factory) the more "vet" / efficient it gets. (consuming for example less engergy) The first factories will be very important especially air fabs on large maps and must be defended.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 25 Apr 2013, 10:14

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-25T10:00:39+02:00

I understand what you are saying, and it's an hidden mechanic limiting efficiency without any visual feedback.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 25 Apr 2013, 10:00

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-25T10:02:30+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
We are against any kind of hard-limit in FA.

Did you understand what i am suggesting? I dont want a hard limit. I want a factor wich makes t1 engis assisting a fab same mass cost effective as t3 engis. And i want that building slightly more factories (no spamming) is favorized

At some point it should be better to just build more factories and or more higher tech engis!

t1 40 engis assisting one factory gets a penalty
2 factories assisted each by 20 t1 is better (in short run it costs more in the long run the cost for the second fab is irrelevant)
one factories assisted by only 10 t3 engis ( slightly better )
2 factories assisted by each 5 t3 engis ( slightly better long run )

My suggestion is a quadratic factor which is limited for example at 25% and affects only mass cost per build rate for factories assisted. I haven't yet calculated the exact factor function it could also be a not quadratic function limited at 50%.

The waste factor could affect mass cost or energy cost or build rate(my favorite) or a combination. And that corrects mass cost effectiveness.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 25 Apr 2013, 09:37

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-25T09:04:15+02:00

We are against any kind of hard-limit in FA.

ie. There is a full armor gestion that could simplify balance, but that is not used (except for overcharge).

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 25 Apr 2013, 09:04

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-25T08:58:01+02:00

after i have read the whole "engi-mod thread" i have a complete different idea that could work. If you want to reduce number of engis assisting just give a bonus to factories that build without assisting and nerf factories wich produce with a lot of engis

So what about waste energy OR mass OR build power per assisting engi.

more than 25 engis waste 25%
20 engis waste 16%
10 engis waste 4%
5 engis waste 1%
0 engis waste -10%

I dont know if it's doable but every fab must have an internal counter which is set continually and is reset after a unit is built
a function like this (Pseudocode)

Code:: currentmax = max(currentlyAssistingEngis(), currentmax) if currentmax >= 25 then waste = 25 elseif currentmax = 0 then waste = -10 // a bonus of 10% else waste = (currentmax /5 )^2 end if

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 25 Apr 2013, 08:58

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T21:02:06+02:00

RoLa wrote:
i have not played the engi mod yet, but i think it changes a lot of basic gameplay concepts.

This shows me, without reading an additional word, that you don't know what ur talking about. No, engie mod does not change basic gameplay concepts. That's the best part about it.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 24 Apr 2013, 21:02

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T19:55:55+02:00

The engineering changes in Engymod are going very much in the right direction. The bigger change is the factory thing -- which I tend to nag people about in chat -- but merging Engymod without that would probably do a similar thing as you suggest, just better tested and with more realistic values.

I wouldn't mind merging the changes with some preliminary compromise on the factories -- it won't solve all the spam but it would improve current FAF and have less controversy. Either way, there already is a decent solution to the T2-3 engineer problem.

Statistics: Posted by Vandroiy — 24 Apr 2013, 19:55

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T17:35:53+02:00

Well I have to check if the bonus and mass storage is in the actual release I forgot may be this update ... But in the next one with the navy physics change It will be for sure !

Statistics: Posted by dstojkov — 24 Apr 2013, 17:35

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T11:22:13+02:00

Hi,

In my mod I resolve the pb this way:

the eco part( mass, energy, build time )
t3 = 2 t2 = 4 t1
for all faction

the build rate
for uef, cybran
t3 = 2 t2 = 4 t1

for aeon, sera
t3 = 2 t2 = 6 t1

bonus in energy and mass storage
t3 = 2 t2 = 6 t1
for all faction

You can use old system but it is simply not worth it because eng with high tech level do the same in better with more hp, more storage, can build more unit and none the the less reduce the unit caps

Statistics: Posted by dstojkov — 24 Apr 2013, 11:22

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T10:18:06+02:00

discoverer2k4 wrote:
anyway all of this was already discussed over months - outcome was the engy mod.
see here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2890 buddy ...

sorry i missed that. I am new to this forum.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 24 Apr 2013, 10:18

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T10:08:22+02:00

The logic behind my suggestions is to have a smooth translation from the need of many t1 engies to a balanced one.

So you build now a t3 land/air/naval fab each assisted by 60 engies(180 t1 engies) + a bunch of t1 fabs

later you will build t1 t2 t3 land / air / naval each assisted by engies of their tech level (30 t1 engies / 24 t2 engies / 18 t3 engies)

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 24 Apr 2013, 10:08

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T09:53:03+02:00

anyway all of this was already discussed over months - outcome was the engy mod.

see here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2890 buddy ...

Statistics: Posted by discoverer2k4 — 24 Apr 2013, 09:53

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T09:43:06+02:00

discoverer2k4 wrote:
Hi, I really, really suggest you to try the engy mod first, before you talking about it. Its worth having a look into it!!!
And to repeat it you should test the engymod! Its worth it!!!

Yes, i will. I am really curios. But not today

discoverer2k4 wrote:
Your suggestion: you need to consider that you have reclaims all over the game, where you don't want to send in a bunch of high costly t2 or t3 engys. So you still need to build t1 engys. At the end you have a lot more engys on the field - this changes the gameplay more than the engy mod actually

The reclaims are not really affected. And if you start to build t2 and later t3 engies you will have less engis on the field.

discoverer2k4 wrote:
On the other hand and this is more important: t2 and t3 engys are bigger than t1 engys. so while you can assist a t4 unit or a factory with less t2 or t3 units than with 60 t1 engys because of there higher build rate the amount of t3 engys is limited to ~20 for example until they start to bump into each other and pathfinding issues begin as well.

Because of this i suggested to increase the build rate of t2 / t3 engis slightly but to compensate increase the time to build the engies. So you would have with 20 * t3 engies the same build power as 80 * t1 engies in the actual version but with my further suggestions to reduce efficience for higher tech build you would need 120 t1 engies. it's just better to have 20 t3 engies assisting a t3 fab.

But your t1 or t2 engies are not competely useless though because u need to build t1/t2 units building later on, too.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 24 Apr 2013, 09:43

Re: t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T09:15:17+02:00

Hi, I really, really suggest you to try the engy mod first, before you talking about it. Its worth having a look into it!!!
Its not changing the gameplay. You can play it like the normal FAF version. So... please give it a try.

Your suggestion: you need to consider that you have reclaims all over the game, where you don't want to send in a bunch of high costly t2 or t3 engys. So you still need to build t1 engys. At the end you have a lot more engys on the field - this changes the gameplay more than the engy mod actually because I'm afraid you have more engys than attack units on the field. On the other hand and this is more important: t2 and t3 engys are bigger than t1 engys. so while you can assist a t4 unit or a factory with less t2 or t3 units than with 60 t1 engys because of there higher build rate the amount of t3 engys is limited to ~20 for example until they start to bump into each other and pathfinding issues begin as well.
Thats my opinion on this.

And to repeat it you should test the engymod! Its worth it!!!

br,
dis

Statistics: Posted by discoverer2k4 — 24 Apr 2013, 09:15

t1 t2 t3 engis conistency / balance / concepts

2013-04-24T08:36:14+02:00

i have not played the engi mod yet, but i think it changes a lot of basic gameplay concepts. I suggest another way.

t1 engies could construct t1 units and building at normal rate but on higher tech things slower. It should be most cost effective to use one factory for each tech level assisted only by engis of its level. Of course if you dont want to build lower tech units any more your t1/t2 engis shouldnt be wasted. This concept is very logical. As the game progresses lower tech units/engis should become obsolet but not complete useless. The engine should let you do the translation from t1 to t2 to t3 phase smootly.

Suggestion for changes:

t2 engie build rate * 1.1
t3 engie build rate * 1.25

t1 engi on t2 build rate * 0.75
t1 engi on t3 build rate * 0.5
t1 engi on t4 build rate * 0.25
t2 engi on t3 build rate * 0.75
t2 engi on t4 build rate * 0.5

time to produce t2 engies * 1.5
time to produce t3 engies * 2

t2 factory producing t1 build rate * 0.75 mass waste of 5%
t3 factory producing t1 build rate * 0.5 mass waste of 10%
t3 factory producing t2 build rate * 0.75 mass waste of 5%

t1 factory producing t1 units energy bonus of 20%,
t2 factory producing t2 units energy bonus of 20%
t3 factory producing t3 units energy bonus of 20%

This values are a guess, could be complete wrong but they show the direction. So what do you think?

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 24 Apr 2013, 08:36