Forged Alliance Forever

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-22T17:22:09+02:00

The problem is not direct factories as such. I can just make factories buildable by engineers. However, the problem is that they need to have different cost and buildtime. The only solution to that (as far as I know) is that they are separate units. This means 24 extra units (48 if you also want to make HQ's from scratch). and has impact on ui (selection) and upgrade paths.

This combined with the fact that I still have some problems with copying models results in me not having done this yet.
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Rien

PS: If somebody knows how to alter buildcost/time depending on what unit is building it, please let me know.

Statistics: Posted by Rienzilla — 22 Apr 2013, 17:22

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-22T10:12:03+02:00

how hard would it be to just rip the appropriate unit data from Black Ops for direct factories or is that not viable?

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 22 Apr 2013, 10:12

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-21T20:44:38+02:00

One thing I don't understand about this mod, however, is why T2 Engies can't build T2 Cheap Facs, and T3 Engies can't build T3 Cheap Facs. I think the earlier argument was that it would be too easy to spam higher level factories, but isn't that the idea? And even then, couldn't a cost multiplier just be added?

We will implement this, and yes, with changed cost. (implementing it is a little more difficult than you make it sound though. It's not impossible but it takes some time)

Regarding OP's point: I don't agree that higher tech engineers should be much less efficient builders than their t1 counterparts for two reasons:

1. Most higher tech units obsolete their lower tech equivalents. The radar being more efficient at t1 than t2 is a weird example; compare it with a normal combat unit: you don't make mantis when your opponent has bricks. The tech 1 engineer is one of the very few units that is currently not obsoleted at all.
2. From a practical point of view: one of the engymod goals was to decrease tech 1 engineer spam in order to decrease pathfinding issues. Making higher tech engineers less efficient will have the opposite effect.

Regarding the issue that it would be too easy to spam structures quickly everywhere: This was addresses by increasing t2 and t3 building buildtime. Effects differ a little depending on the structure, but a t2 engineer is not faster in building t2pd than it used to be.

Also, engineer movement speed and health has been nerfed significantly as to not make them too strong on the field.
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Rien

Statistics: Posted by Rienzilla — 21 Apr 2013, 20:44

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-21T04:33:23+02:00

Funky, you're paying for the additional build options of engineers beforehand with the HQ. Afterwards, it is your choice whether or not to go with mobility (lower tech engies), or versatility and survivability (higher tech engies).

One thing I don't understand about this mod, however, is why T2 Engies can't build T2 Cheap Facs, and T3 Engies can't build T3 Cheap Facs. I think the earlier argument was that it would be too easy to spam higher level factories, but isn't that the idea? And even then, couldn't a cost multiplier just be added?

Statistics: Posted by MushrooMars — 21 Apr 2013, 04:33

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-21T00:46:11+02:00

Both statements are false: It is always better to build as many T1 mex as you can before upgrading to T2. Always. Not sometimes, ALWAYS. T2 radar is similar.

I'm referring specifically to marginal value. If you cover the map with T1 MEX the value added of one additional T1 MEX will be a greater percentage increase than if you had the same map covered in T2 MEX.

Likewise T2 Radar diminishes the marginal importance of additional T1 radars. I like the idea of higher tech engineers not necessarily losing efficiency but rather losing mobility (speed).

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 21 Apr 2013, 00:46

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T21:44:18+02:00

SC-Account wrote:
Oh and yeah, I think spamming T2 engineers earlier is a good effect since it will count of units on field, lag and will make ctr + k'ing engineers cause of unit limit rather obsolete (which is a good thing IMO).

you can produce more factories to that end.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 20 Apr 2013, 21:44

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T21:10:31+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Veta wrote:yes T2 MEX and T2 Radar are circumstantial in their use, when T2 MEX come into play they diminish the relative importance of T1 MEX, when T2 radar comes into play it too diminishes the importance of additional T1 Radar.

Both statements are false: It is always better to build as many T1 mex as you can before upgrading to T2. Always. Not sometimes, ALWAYS. T2 radar is similar.

It is always better to make T1 engineers before you make T2 engineers, ALWAYS.
It is never good to keep one or more mexes at T1 when you can upgrade them to T2 and got the resources to do so.

That said I don't know if it is a good change to make teched engineers more efficient, but I don't agree with your reasoning.
Oh and yeah, I think spamming T2 engineers earlier is a good effect since it will count of units on field, lag and will make ctr + k'ing engineers cause of unit limit rather obsolete (which is a good thing IMO).

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 20 Apr 2013, 21:10

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T20:08:02+02:00

Veta wrote:
yes T2 MEX and T2 Radar are circumstantial in their use, when T2 MEX come into play they diminish the relative importance of T1 MEX, when T2 radar comes into play it too diminishes the importance of additional T1 Radar.

you have to pay a lot more for t2 mexes compared to t1 mexes.
if you want t2 structure tech readily available (in the form of t2 engis), it should come at a cost.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 20 Apr 2013, 20:08

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T20:07:02+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Veta wrote:yes T2 MEX and T2 Radar are circumstantial in their use, when T2 MEX come into play they diminish the relative importance of T1 MEX, when T2 radar comes into play it too diminishes the importance of additional T1 Radar.

Both statements are false: It is always better to build as many T1 mex as you can before upgrading to T2. Always. Not sometimes, ALWAYS. T2 radar is similar.

Actually, the maths says it is better to go T1>T2>Storage>T3 - > T1 cycle again IF you already have the resources. I still agree with the rest of what ur saying though!

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 20 Apr 2013, 20:07

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T19:58:25+02:00

Veta wrote:
yes T2 MEX and T2 Radar are circumstantial in their use, when T2 MEX come into play they diminish the relative importance of T1 MEX, when T2 radar comes into play it too diminishes the importance of additional T1 Radar.

Both statements are false: It is always better to build as many T1 mex as you can before upgrading to T2. Always. Not sometimes, ALWAYS. T2 radar is similar.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 20 Apr 2013, 19:58

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T17:00:42+02:00

i agree

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 20 Apr 2013, 17:00

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T16:49:50+02:00

T1 Engies should indeed be useful lategame, but not as crowds in the base, ever. The use should be for expanding to make new bases, and for reclaiming. The solution to FunkOff's theory complaint is to severely nerf the movespeed of T2 and T3 Engineers, such that they are no good for these tasks. If you want to make a new base at T3, or reclaim, you use T1.

Another thing is, if you look at the balance of the rest of the game, T1 is viable once solid T2 is reached, yes. But once solid T3 is reached, T1 is phased out and no longer produced except for occasional specialist tasks. Why should Engineers be any different. you wouldn't put T1 tanks in an army at solid T3 stages (Armies of 50+ T3 clashing with experimentals too)

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 20 Apr 2013, 16:49

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T15:33:38+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Veta wrote:T2 radar makes T1 radar obsolete, why should engineers be any different?

T2 radar doesn't make T1 obsolete: It requires 12 times the power and has less than double the range. A network of T1 radar is way more efficient.

yes and T2 mex are far less energy efficient which is why it's far more energy efficient to have a network of T1 MEX than some T2 MEX. Much like the efficiency relationship between MEX however the difference in upfront cost and consumption, coupled with the inherent defensive burden of many interpolated structures, becomes negligible as the game progresses.

yes T2 MEX and T2 Radar are circumstantial in their use, when T2 MEX come into play they diminish the relative importance of T1 MEX, when T2 radar comes into play it too diminishes the importance of additional T1 Radar.

edit: phrasing

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 20 Apr 2013, 15:33

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T15:19:17+02:00

Isn't the beauty of supcom that the first tech can often be relevant and important through to the 2nd and 3rd tech. I had not experienced this really before supcom

Statistics: Posted by Taffy — 20 Apr 2013, 15:19

Re: It should be called the factory mod, and 1 more thing

2013-04-20T15:14:34+02:00

Veta wrote:
T2 radar makes T1 radar obsolete, why should engineers be any different?

T2 radar doesn't make T1 obsolete: It requires 12 times the power and has less than double the range. A network of T1 radar is way more efficient.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 20 Apr 2013, 15:14