Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-07T07:21:51+02:00

kiting and dodging are more like battle tactics than battle strategy. engaging with your assault units (tanks) and then flanking with your skirmishers (bots) is more along the lines of what is meant.

in the above scenario the squishier bots deal their damage while fire is focused on the sturdier tanks resulting in a superior outcome than simply walking all your units into the enemy. this doesn't really happen in FA though for a variety of reasons even though from a design perspective it seems intended.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 07 Apr 2013, 07:21

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-06T23:55:29+02:00

positioning is far far far more important in supcom... kiting units etc.

in sc2 the positioning is far less important as is the micro of those units... thats not positioning strategy.

in a game where there are units with different speeds, air units, and different range attacks positioning is super important.

Statistics: Posted by random — 06 Apr 2013, 23:55

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-06T13:11:18+02:00

there's a good explanation here: http://zero-k.info/Wiki/UnitAI

how this fits in with units roles: http://zero-k.info/Wiki/UnitClasses

Zero-K is really well developed conceptually but poorly developed graphically.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 06 Apr 2013, 13:11

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-06T10:43:29+02:00

Veta wrote:
I'm curious how difficult it would be to implement Zero-K style unit AI.
this is the code here: http://zero-k.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ ... cal_ai.lua

In short, how does unit AI work in Zero-K?

Statistics: Posted by Wakke — 06 Apr 2013, 10:43

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-06T10:08:34+02:00

I'm curious how difficult it would be to implement Zero-K style unit AI.
this is the code here: http://zero-k.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ ... cal_ai.lua

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 06 Apr 2013, 10:08

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-06T09:28:54+02:00

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:
Maybe I am misunderstanding what the argument is, but it would seem that with the ability to fire on the move unit control is even more vital.

Note, I would never propose to remove firing on the move, as I think it's an awesome thing to have. I was just pondering about the effects of making firing on the move less effective than stationary fire.

Statistics: Posted by Wakke — 06 Apr 2013, 09:28

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-06T00:33:16+02:00

I kind of tend to disagree with the basic premise of this topic. I am only just now breaking into the better divisions of players and starting to take part in the higher level games, but what I see is that one of the biggest differences is the unit control. The same tech speed is there, the same basic eco, but when you start using terrain, feints, radar snipes, stealth, microing longrange units (mongoose) behind fodder (t1 line and a few mobile shields), etc, you WILL win over someone with good unit control. The approach angle, speed of engagement, everything you do is absolutely vital to the outcome of the battle.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what the argument is, but it would seem that with the ability to fire on the move unit control is even more vital.

Statistics: Posted by BRNKoINSANITY — 06 Apr 2013, 00:33

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-05T18:58:47+02:00

concave fire obviously gives you an advantage in simulation style RTS, even in non-simulation style like StarCraft 1. But I wouldn't compare that to actual battlefield management

Eukanuba wrote:
My concern with encouraging fronts to develop is that when this does happen in FA it gets pretty boring. For instance two commanders sitting in shielded firebases slowly building up more defences until one builds enough artillery to force the other one out. A simplification but you get my meaning.

ya that's exactly what they're trying to avoid, frontage meaning like wide hostile fronts alla WW1 France and WW2 Russia.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 05 Apr 2013, 18:58

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-05T18:11:12+02:00

Well maybe it's just my imagination, but I would swear that sandwiching an enemy force between two groups of tanks kills them much more effectively than if you went face to face. If you're surrounding a force you're concentrating your firepower inwards so you get easier focus fire and any missed shots are likely to hit something else. By contrast the surrounded units are all firing in different directions and any missed shots will miss completely.

EDIT: what do communication lines have to do with it?

Statistics: Posted by Eukanuba — 05 Apr 2013, 18:11

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-05T18:05:05+02:00

Eukanuba wrote:
however I do think that the way the FA simulation works is very good for allowing things like pincer movements and surrounding the enemy

which is entirely irrelevant since there are no lines of communication to disrupt in supcom.

Eukanuba wrote:
- if you succeed in positioning your units in either of these ways then you will do significantly more damage than just facing off or mixing swarms.

surrounding does not give any advantage IMHO.
crossing the T does work in supcom though.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 05 Apr 2013, 18:05

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-05T17:54:13+02:00

Yes, one thing that has been criticised on the PA forum's is the way that in FA, battles are over very quickly. FA units have high DPS and low HP, whereas in TA it was the other way round which encouraged fronts to develop. That's what they're going for with PA, I'm not sure which I'll prefer until I play it, but the arguments seem pretty convincing.

I won't pretend to know anything about real military tactics, however I do think that the way the FA simulation works is very good for allowing things like pincer movements and surrounding the enemy - if you succeed in positioning your units in either of these ways then you will do significantly more damage than just facing off or mixing swarms.

My concern with encouraging fronts to develop is that when this does happen in FA it gets pretty boring. For instance two commanders sitting in shielded firebases slowly building up more defences until one builds enough artillery to force the other one out. A simplification but you get my meaning.

Statistics: Posted by Eukanuba — 05 Apr 2013, 17:54

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-05T17:31:28+02:00

No, I agree that they probably wouldn't change that either - one thing they might do though is emulate Zero-K's automatic kiting and significant movement inaccuracy. That would encourage frontage to develop as it does in real military scenarios. Suddenly running all your units into the enemy front isn't such a good idea.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 05 Apr 2013, 17:31

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-05T16:46:28+02:00

Units being able to fire on the move has been an integral part of this sub-genre since Total Annihilation and I believe it is an important part of the way the simulation feels.

I very much doubt that the PA devs will change it for two reasons: 1) it's an in-all-but-name sequel to TA, and 2) the pitch video shows units moving and shooting.

Statistics: Posted by Eukanuba — 05 Apr 2013, 16:46

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-05T16:17:29+02:00

I never said that. When units can't attack and move - how units are positioned before and during an engagement has real tactical importance - as opposed to simply running your blob of tanks into their blob of tanks.

The point is moot because SCFA is a little too far in its development cycle to change any of that now. But I wholly agree with OP that this limits the effectiveness of real military tactics like feigns, flanks, pitches, etc.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 05 Apr 2013, 16:17

Re: Importance of troop positioning in FA

2013-04-05T15:57:31+02:00

Veta wrote:
that sounds pretty dismissive eukanuba, I don't want to jump to any character judgments but you probably won't persuade anyone with that approach

I'm not trying to persuade anyone, my point is that CoH and SCFA are entirely different games that appeal to entirely different people. Company of Heroes does a great job of being Company of Heroes, but it's entirely different to SCFA and of no interest to me.

How would you make SCFA 'like' CoH without changing it entirely?

My understanding of CoH is that it's all about moving small squads slowly and carefully from bunker to bunker. SCFA is about moving huge amounts of units and minimal micromanagement; they're entirely incompatible game-types.

Statistics: Posted by Eukanuba — 05 Apr 2013, 15:57