Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-07T17:44:46+02:00

shabbathai wrote:
You know how could you fix this eco complexitiy? By lowering default speed.. normal speed should be at -1 or -2. The simplest fact is, that its just too fast to handle it all. Unless you want to dedicate your life to geeking 20h a day so you can play this game. Talk about fun in that..

This was brought up before, and while some people agreed, me included, there also were people against it.

Statistics: Posted by Wakke — 07 Apr 2013, 17:44

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-07T16:51:25+02:00

You know how could you fix this eco complexitiy? By lowering default speed.. normal speed should be at -1 or -2. The simplest fact is, that its just too fast to handle it all. Unless you want to dedicate your life to geeking 20h a day so you can play this game. Talk about fun in that..

Statistics: Posted by shabbathai — 07 Apr 2013, 16:51

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-06T19:49:36+02:00

Awesome, nice mods there!

I tried the MOD. Also very interesting for making new mods. He did a great job.
I am trying to look into the sliders also, where you can change the range of the PDs.
The nodes/pipelines are not THAT intuitive, and there is a cap, so there cant be produced more than i.e. 27 Mass for a T3 mex.

Also, for the ones that want a direct download:
at page 16 Exavier Macbeth has the nice downlaod for us still there!
Its in size very tiny and has so much to offer! It would be a shame if this jewel gets forgotten.
Nice find!

Also, he made already autoupgrade mexes as well as a mod where they gain "experience" over time.
its all there.. the mod exists already
so take what you need, make a GOOD MOD. well, the mod is already there, you only have to find it
her a little take out:

Gilbot-X link wrote:
As you know my Mexes increase output over time on an exponential model and they also autoupgrade.
I'm changing the way the time-based mass extractors work as follows:

1/ Aeon Mexes pause production while upgrading. The others don't. This is because the Aeon mex is an auto-pack unit with a shield.

2/ Mexes will get proportionate discounts in their upgrading costs depending on how much their output has increased over time. If their output reaches what it would start at for the next tech level, the upgrade is free.

3/ I'm still not decided on what I'll do with the feature that stops you from upgrading a Mex until it's output has increased over time to a certain level. There are no limits on upgrading T1 Mexes but I have limits set on when you can upgrade T2 mexes. At the moment I've set it so that the build/upgrade icon appears in the build menu but if you click on it, it will disappear until upgrade time has been reached and a text warning flashes over the Mex to say what output it needs to have before upgrading. After it reaches that output level, the button comes back and you can upgrade manually (at the discounted cost)... or alternatively you can wait (ages) until it reaches its max output for T2 by itself and automatically upgrades to T3 for free. At the moment it's just set so that you can't upgrade a T2 Mex until its output reaches 15 mass. I was thinking setting this to different numbers for different factions, i.e. 14 for factions like cybran that should tech faster, and 16 for Aeon who eventually are strongest when teched fully up. These settings can be changed easily anyway, so I guess it's not so important. To set them, look in Blueprints.lua or go to the economy sectioon of unit blueprint of the Mex you want to give a custom value to.

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 06 Apr 2013, 19:49

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-06T01:01:23+02:00

One way that you can implement the T2 and T3 mex have a bigger grid is through Gilbot-X's resource network. In this mod adjacency extended beyond touching the sides of the mex. It accounted for the corners and if you place another mass storage on the side of another mass storage that was touching a mex it will also apply an adjacency bonus.

example:
M = mex
S = mass storage

SSS
SMSS
SSS

The storage on the middle row all the way to the right will give an adjacency bonus to the mex as well as the ones on each corner.

With this, we can implement the more mass storages are needed by a higher tier mex to get the bonus without worrying about changing the physical size of the 1x1 mex.

Gilbot-X also had a pipeline mod where you extend a pipeline from one or all sides of a mex and on each side of the pipeline you can add mass storage which will grant an adjacency bonus to the mex. The pipeline used the adjacency lines so units can pass over them and not block their path.

example:
M = mex
S = mass storage
P = pipeline
_ = space for formatting

SSS_____SSSSSS
SMPPPPPPPPPPPS
SSS_____SSSSSS

He implemented diminishing rate of return for each additional mass storage you add so that it does not get ridiculous (for both of the examples above).

(ps. He also made a mod that the longer you hold a mex, the more mass it produced. All these mods were originally for SupCom vanilla. Just goes to show you, the longer the game is out the more times you are solving the same problems.)

Statistics: Posted by The Mak — 06 Apr 2013, 01:01

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T21:51:39+02:00

you are right. factorys would suffer

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 05 Apr 2013, 21:51

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T20:30:44+02:00

And adding to this I have also an idea that might be as well considered. But practically a huge change:
To make it short:

The Tech2 and Tech3 Mexes have a bigger grid. Lets say T2 has 3x3 and T3 5x5.
To get the full bonus you have to circle them like any other building.
When you upgrade, the surrounding buildings (from 1x1 you go to 3x3) the mass the buildings were worth is used for the new building. Therefore all adjacency bonuses go away and you start over with the T2.

This would be the most 'obvious' solution, as it is the same reason that estorage+pgen has never presented the same problems that people have with mstorage+mex. But I've never brought it up before because how would you implement something like this? I don't know anything about coding for this game, but it seems difficult/annoying to implement. Not to mention that it would limit people's ability to place high tier mexes in tight spots. (Which I personally don't have a problem with, but I imagine others would be quite livid about.)

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 05 Apr 2013, 20:30

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T19:40:01+02:00

Veta has posted an interesting idea in an other thread that is heading kindof in the same direction:
http://www.faforever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=37013#p37013

And adding to this I have also an idea that might be as well considered. But practically a huge change:
To make it short:

The Tech2 and Tech3 Mexes have a bigger grid. Lets say T2 has 3x3 and T3 5x5.
To get the full bonus you have to circle them like any other building.
When you upgrade, the surrounding buildings (from 1x1 you go to 3x3) the mass the buildings were worth is used for the new building. Therefore all adjacency bonuses go away and you start over with the T2.

Statistics: Posted by rxnnxs — 05 Apr 2013, 19:40

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T16:33:16+02:00

Gowerly wrote:
rootbeer23 wrote:13*2m/s * 7 * 60s = 10920m - 436 = X
27m/s * 7 * 60s = 11340m - 5400 = Y

You're assuming a start from 0, which is blatantly false.

???

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 05 Apr 2013, 16:33

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T16:18:05+02:00

rootbeer23 wrote:
13*2m/s * 7 * 60s = 10920m - 436 = X
27m/s * 7 * 60s = 11340m - 5400 = Y

You're assuming a start from 0, which is blatantly false.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 05 Apr 2013, 16:18

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T16:10:06+02:00

Veta wrote:
That is exactly what Zep is looking at though, the T1 game is far more expansion/control struggle focused than the T3 game.

10 t1 mex in your base + 10 t1 mex in the field -> 50% resources in the field
10 t3 mex in your base + 10 t1 mex in the field -> 7% resources in the field
10 t3 mex in your base + 10 t3 mex in the field -> 50% resources in the field

we have to be more precise about what we are discussing. its definitely not "map control is not important at t3".
it is how many seconds do you not scout your opponent to find out he is teching up.
because if you have 10 mexes more, he only needs 5 t2 mexes more to make up for the difference.

still, IMO its wrong that the t3 mex upgrade costs approx the same as the t2 upgrade.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 05 Apr 2013, 16:10

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T15:51:03+02:00

That is exactly what Zep is looking at though, the T1 game is far more expansion/control struggle focused than the T3 game.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 05 Apr 2013, 15:51

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T15:46:53+02:00

13*2m/s * 7 * 60s = 10920m - 436 = X
27m/s * 7 * 60s = 11340m - 5400 = Y

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 05 Apr 2013, 15:46

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T15:33:54+02:00

After time, though, he is correct. 7 minutes, granted, but after that time the person with the t3 mex will be outproducing you.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 05 Apr 2013, 15:33

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T15:30:32+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
You need to hold 13 T1 mexes more than your enemy to get more mass from map control than surrounding a T3 mex.

13 * 36 = 468
4600 + 4*200 = 5400

your argument is 1153% wrong.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 05 Apr 2013, 15:30

Re: Complexity of Economy

2013-04-05T14:18:02+02:00

As you can see lategame, map control was entirely unimportant to me.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 05 Apr 2013, 14:18