Forged Alliance Forever

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-16T23:37:04+02:00

Sorry I wasn't clear. Making AA wasn't the problem. IMO as air was not an immediate threat 1 AA would have been sufficient, you could then have put more mass into bricks and or PD.

Statistics: Posted by Beej — 16 Mar 2013, 23:37

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-16T23:20:42+02:00

Well people make TMDs as a matter of course, so why not AA?

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 16 Mar 2013, 23:20

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-16T02:23:45+02:00

Flynn wrote:
Hi Poch, very helpful advice there! It's funny you mention about another engineer spam factory, as I had a game on this map again today and I built 1 engineer spam factory for the right hand side and 1 for the left hand side. I don't know why I didn't build one for the left hand side in this game. Also another thing I've thought of for games like this to make things easier is modular defense templates. Instead of scattering PDs and T2 antiair turrets around the base for defense, I've build a template with everything needed in it to make it able to defend itself by itself. Basically, shield gen+PDs+AA towers+TMDs. I place a few of those at strategic points which quickly covers the base-way less clicking involved which is where I often fall behind an opponent. I don't know why but I often forget TML for some reason! I could have sniped his ACU with a TML launcher. Really frustrating. Oh and I forgot to build deceivers as well, I was actually looking forward to using them but when it came to it I completely forgot! Also I felt that if I took the bricks away his units would pour into my undefended base which was why I was tentative about moving them.

I'd be careful with too many templates. He had very little air but at one point towards the end you starting building what looked like a template, including 4 flak defenses? He had no offensive air so this was a waste of mass really. 4 PDs would have defended that side so you could have sent your bricks elsewhere as Poch said about.

Don't dwell too much on one game, you played well
Just practice!

Statistics: Posted by Beej — 16 Mar 2013, 02:23

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-16T00:25:07+02:00

Flynn wrote:
It's not as simple as you like to make out. If I sent engineers to go and reclaim those stones, I would have less interceptors and less T2 land due to having less engineers to assist those factories.

Yes it's not easy, but possible. Here is a replay from me. Look at my fast 2 engies which are reclaiming the stones near my base (they are saving my economy) and look at the map after 15 mins. I reclaimed all, the map is empty.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 16 Mar 2013, 00:25

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T23:25:19+02:00

Hi Poch, very helpful advice there! It's funny you mention about another engineer spam factory, as I had a game on this map again today and I built 1 engineer spam factory for the right hand side and 1 for the left hand side. I don't know why I didn't build one for the left hand side in this game. Also another thing I've thought of for games like this to make things easier is modular defense templates. Instead of scattering PDs and T2 antiair turrets around the base for defense, I've build a template with everything needed in it to make it able to defend itself by itself. Basically, shield gen+PDs+AA towers+TMDs. I place a few of those at strategic points which quickly covers the base-way less clicking involved which is where I often fall behind an opponent. I don't know why but I often forget TML for some reason! I could have sniped his ACU with a TML launcher. Really frustrating. Oh and I forgot to build deceivers as well, I was actually looking forward to using them but when it came to it I completely forgot! Also I felt that if I took the bricks away his units would pour into my undefended base which was why I was tentative about moving them.

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 15 Mar 2013, 23:25

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T21:19:36+02:00

Ok, from what i've seen :

Important problems you have :

Not enough factories building engineers in loop : you would had much smaller reaction time for reconstruction. You could have reclaim your backyard and the shitload of wrecks on YOUR side of the maps WAY quicker with this. For me it is #1 cause of your loss, because you have the advantage a lot of times in this game.
When you go T3 land, he outproduces you a little on the T1 spam. You recover from it well. IMO your force are superior to his, but you use bricks mostly to defend instead of raiding where his units are not. You could have been much more threatening by using those to attack. Let's say 2/3 bricks + a mobile stealth generator on a flank (or bringed by air transport) would have devastated some parts of his base.
A few lack of attention errors that costed you some : your upgrading ACU could have been defended with nearby troops, your back T3 generator could have been defended before it was destroyed, and sometimes you react a few (precious) seconds too late when you are in his base or when he is in yours.
He built T2 arty on the left side. Very early in the game i prayed for you to build TML. 2 missiles of them would have get you rid of arty (you could have reclaimed it), and he had no TMD in his bases, so your right firebase could have hosted a few TML to snipe his mexes or his T2/T3 land production facilities.

So, you are >= to him on a lot of things, but you could have defended a little more efficiently, you could have used your assets (first bricks, first T3 air) a little more agressively, and above all, you LACK engies, buildpower and reclaim capacity.

Very easy to say when looking at the replay, harder to do ingame. But i think you did very well and applying those tips in your current playstyle should be very easy compared to the amount of time it would take to go from noob to your level ! You play quite good already.

With a few more engies, and all that reclaim on your side of the map, you could have go for MonkeyLord just a few minutes after leaving.

Statistics: Posted by Poch — 15 Mar 2013, 21:19

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T16:08:17+02:00

After they built the radar in the middle you had 3 engies sat there idle for several minutes, and TML in your base could still reach some of his mexes!
Not saying TMD isn't a good idea, just attack too

Early game you had more factories than your opponent, so should have won the T1 battles more convincingly had you been reclaiming too - they consistently have more mass than you for this reason.

Statistics: Posted by Beej — 15 Mar 2013, 16:08

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T16:04:58+02:00

I only build TMD's because I've seen the pros always do it as a matter of course. But TMLs need to be built in a forward position, engineers would not survive in a forward position on that map. I think bombing his engineers was justified because I was taking out at least 2 engineers with each run which would pay for the bomber and deny his build power-even though my bombers were getting shot down quite quickly. I just don't seem to have enough engineers to throw a load of them on reclaiming duties for some reason. And don't anyone suggest an engineer spam factory because that's what I had

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 15 Mar 2013, 16:04

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T15:31:41+02:00

From about minute 7 you have no mass, but power. had you even one engie reclaiming then it would have helped and you'd have more units since you had factories making units which needed mass...
Also near the beginning you bomb his base, he gets AA - best thing to do is bomb somewhere else

One more thing I noticed, you had t2 engies up before him, and built TMD... Why not TML too?
It's hard to think more offensively but he had no defence (he also had no launchers) so you could have taken out most of his t2 mexes.

(I say this all humbly, I'm terrible at micro and its always easier to see others mistakes!)

Statistics: Posted by Beej — 15 Mar 2013, 15:31

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T15:08:14+02:00

When Voodoo says you need more reclaim, you better reclaim more.

Statistics: Posted by Blackheart — 15 Mar 2013, 15:08

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T15:05:33+02:00

It's not as simple as you like to make out. If I sent engineers to go and reclaim those stones, I would have less interceptors and less T2 land due to having less engineers to assist those factories. One mistake I have consistantly seen pros make is going for reclaim when they cannot utilise it due to not having enough build power. Without build power, reclaim is useless.

Beej, I quit because I was constantly on the defensive, he had a significant number of T2 PDs and Othuums in my base. I had assumed his com had the nano repair upgrade since it was at the front but it turns out he didn't upon watching the replay. Even if he had, if I was Aeon I would have tried a mercy snipe but as cybran fighter bombers would have been too expensive to spam quickly before he would figure out what I was up to. He took out my T3 power which was a nuisance also I didn't realise it at the time by my shift key is playing up which made putting engineers on attack-move difficult (for the reclaim). Somehow I lost the T1 spam war after 20 minutes which was the turning point of the game. After that I just couldn't get back on offense.

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 15 Mar 2013, 15:05

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T14:31:59+02:00

There are a lot of little stones to reclaim. In the middle and on the sides. You started in minute 15 to reclaim the stones at the middle but you never reclaimed the stones at the side.

The game is all about reclaim, the player with the better income will win in a normal game.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 15 Mar 2013, 14:31

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T14:23:19+02:00

Why did you quit? You had more T3 than him, and T3 air - one strat bomber supported by your inties could have really helped you.
Its a tough map - going T3 against him was probably best idea. It doesn't really should illshovahs are imbalanced IMO - generally numbers were fairly even but he had more T2 so thats expected.
One thing I'd say is using your commander early game (or at any point) to support a factory is generally pretty inefficient. On that map moving to another of the starting positons early ish helps you secure you base a bit better.
Earlier harassment perhaps? Instead of going into his main base and killing maybe a hydro, go around the back and see how many mexes you can get!

Hopefully that's helpful to you.

Statistics: Posted by Beej — 15 Mar 2013, 14:23

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T00:46:45+02:00

this is in the wrong section Also I must have attacked at least a dozen times, I took his whole right side at one point plus i was in his base doing damage. i couldnt expand as well as usual because i was microing my bombers at the beginning Edit: I sent about half a dozen engineers to each battlefield to reclaim, but I didnt notice any reclaim going on. I think its a problem with attack move. Edit: Now I've calmed down I've watched the replay and I dominated the game for the first 15 minutes so no offense to a pro but I don't know what you are talking about Feel free to move this to the "help me I'm a n00b" section if you want. Also another thing this replay shows is how imba illshovahs are. They have the highest HP of any T2 unit, bar the Obsidian!

Statistics: Posted by Flynn — 15 Mar 2013, 00:46

Re: 30 minute game help

2013-03-15T00:43:21+02:00

You have to reclaim the map faster and with more engies, also the battlefield.
And your start is too slow, try to capture the map faster.
One more thing is, why you never tried to attack?

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 15 Mar 2013, 00:43