Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-06T12:40:13+02:00

Valki wrote:
ZaphodX wrote:Well it adds a layer of strategy with engineer usage and t2 engineering upgrade. Why remove that?

It adds a limitation, not strategy.

Strategy results from having as many viable choices as possible.
Wouldn't you say that FAF offers more opening strategies because you can build an air factory whenever you want, instead of having to first build a cybernetics core such as in Starcraft 2?

t2 engineering upgrade for the acu is strategy. The ability to make flak and t2pd in less than 20 seconds is not to be underestimated. For the cybran, you could set up a new shield in less than 40 seconds via the t2 acu engie upgrade. That is astounding.

And, truth be told, supcom is pretty heavy with build orders. I'd be lying if i said i play supcom multi without a clear building construction and unit production order pre-programmed in my head. Im pretty sure some if not all of the FAF community works that way too.

Statistics: Posted by asdfmovie — 06 Mar 2013, 12:40

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-06T03:34:57+02:00

Derp.... and I emphasize Derp....

Your acu has more than enough en at start to build 4 mex and the hydro... 2 mex then hydro leaves plenty, and then the hydro leaves you at +120 en for your build. You DO NOT have a static amount of energy. You are gaining from every thing you have built so far. So after the 2 mex and hydro you are +5 mass and + 120 energy. This means that you will BARELY mass stall on the en storage for an insignificant amount of time, and then you can leave the factory building engies while you walk acu to front.

With the factory running in this hypothetical build, you will finish the initial build with only a slight (very) mass stall at the tail end of the last building, and your eco will be +1 mass and +100 energy (and a few more if you build storage for adjacency on hydro) with the factory running building engies.

Not the absolute best build, I agree, but if you could make it to your opponent's spawn soon enough you could cripple him by killing off engies and early tanks. By the time you reach the other side, you will also have the boost of whatever your engies built during the walk.

Please next time think through your hypothetical situations a little better.....

Statistics: Posted by BRNKoINSANITY — 06 Mar 2013, 03:34

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-06T03:02:22+02:00

Veta wrote:
BRNKoINSANITY wrote:I did think it through.... If the ACU has full blue print here is a totally do-able build order.

2 mex -> hydro -> factory -> en storage -> rush to front.

I am not saying you drop an en storage at the spawn and then walk away. I AM saying that the full blueprint significantly boosts the speed on a full-powered rush AND allows you to rebuild your en storage at any point of the game engy or not.

did you REALLY think about that? the total energy cost of that BO is 2400+800+2100+360+360= 6020
remind me how much the ACU starts with?
that's WITHOUT building anything from your factory. you realize how bad this would stall? with the current cost on energy storage this BO would fail hard.

4000 - 2 * 360 - 800 - 2100 - 1200 + 2*6 * 10 + 40 * 10 + 30 * 110 + 20 * 110 = 9600.
== all batteries fully charged when you start your attack. but 1 overcharge every 50 seconds sounds like a bad deal.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 06 Mar 2013, 03:02

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-06T03:05:24+02:00

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:
I did think it through.... If the ACU has full blue print here is a totally do-able build order.

2 mex -> hydro -> factory -> en storage -> rush to front.

I am not saying you drop an en storage at the spawn and then walk away. I AM saying that the full blueprint significantly boosts the speed on a full-powered rush AND allows you to rebuild your en storage at any point of the game engy or not.

did you REALLY think about that? the total energy cost of that BO is 2400+800+2100+360+360= 6020
that's without building anything from your factory. you realize how bad this would stall? not to mention you would lose valuable mex capture opportunity by delaying a factory so much. with the current cost on energy storage this BO would fail hard. maybe pre 3600 this build would work, except you didnt even need energy storage for OC back then. how did ppl ever play this game before 3603?

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 06 Mar 2013, 02:53

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-06T01:42:33+02:00

I did think it through.... If the ACU has full blue print here is a totally do-able build order.

2 mex -> hydro -> factory -> en storage -> rush to front.

I am not saying you drop an en storage at the spawn and then walk away. I AM saying that the full blueprint significantly boosts the speed on a full-powered rush AND allows you to rebuild your en storage at any point of the game engy or not.

Statistics: Posted by BRNKoINSANITY — 06 Mar 2013, 01:42

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-05T17:36:55+02:00

it's too bad SE owns IP rights

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 05 Mar 2013, 17:36

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-05T09:48:34+02:00

cheese/"lore"/

I find this an insult to the fanfiction of supcom: http://fiction-stories.com/word/?p=287, follow the google docs link there. Download the books. You won't be disappointed.[/quote]

God god this is amazing, just started reading it! Why didn't I know about this and who can I thank for creating it?!

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 05 Mar 2013, 09:48

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-05T08:08:21+02:00

BRNKoINSANITY wrote:
From what I understand the entire point of having 4k en storage on the ACU and overcharge requiring 5k is to restrict ACU rushes. In the very early game stages if the ACU is equipped with overcharge it can pretty much kill an infinite number of tanks and arty as they are produced by just walking across the map at the start.

Adding En storage to the blueprint would simply delay the Overcharge rush by a few seconds.

This is the reason for En storage being on the engy blueprint and missing from the ACU... You have to build a factory AND an engineer, by which time you will have to claim some mex and build pgen so that you don't crash building the En storage. This pushes your overcharge time out to around 2 minutes, and gives your opponent time to build something before you come trade bases with him.

If you put the En storage on the ACU I think you can pretty safely assume that EVERY SINGLE 5k 1v1 and most 2v2+ 10k maps would just be an ACU rush by either or both sides.

TL;DR--- Forcing you to delay the overcharge ability (which is really what we are talking about here... not the En storage itself) leads into coming up with other strategies. You have to expand with factories, economy, and engineers, and you have to pursue an overall strategy besides "best ACU micro wins."

the enstorage requirement was added after GPG stopped supporting the game, this is not correct. nobody is going to drop enstorage down instead of PGens, factories, and mexes first. i encourage you to think that out more - even on finns that would not be viable.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 05 Mar 2013, 08:08

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-05T05:38:34+02:00

From what I understand the entire point of having 4k en storage on the ACU and overcharge requiring 5k is to restrict ACU rushes. In the very early game stages if the ACU is equipped with overcharge it can pretty much kill an infinite number of tanks and arty as they are produced by just walking across the map at the start.

Adding En storage to the blueprint would simply delay the Overcharge rush by a few seconds.

This is the reason for En storage being on the engy blueprint and missing from the ACU... You have to build a factory AND an engineer, by which time you will have to claim some mex and build pgen so that you don't crash building the En storage. This pushes your overcharge time out to around 2 minutes, and gives your opponent time to build something before you come trade bases with him.

If you put the En storage on the ACU I think you can pretty safely assume that EVERY SINGLE 5k 1v1 and most 2v2+ 10k maps would just be an ACU rush by either or both sides.

TL;DR--- Forcing you to delay the overcharge ability (which is really what we are talking about here... not the En storage itself) leads into coming up with other strategies. You have to expand with factories, economy, and engineers, and you have to pursue an overall strategy besides "best ACU micro wins."

Statistics: Posted by BRNKoINSANITY — 05 Mar 2013, 05:38

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-05T04:49:12+02:00

maybe i was harsh, i still think this is something suited to a balance mod (assuming there's some agreement it's worth trying in the future). understandably their is a severe conservatism in regards to changing anything about the game but in terms of trial changes there is rarely any risk.

the radar point is a legitimate one and was more the sort of justification i was looking to receive. there seems to be no objection to ACUs building hydros or storage, just radar? The former should be insignificant, the latter may have proven one ability too many in the past when OC and the ACU in general were much more powerful. Certainly radar on ACU would merit testing anyhow, cheers.

p.s. pls dont hold me responsible for someone else's lexicon.

Statistics: Posted by Veta — 05 Mar 2013, 04:49

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-04T20:23:57+02:00

these replies are dripping with cognitive dissonance

It's a personal thing but please don't use that term anymore on the FAF forum. It's been scattered around by some complete idiot on GPG whenever he wanted to make a point about the supposedly bad graphics from supcom and on how graphics >>>...>>> gameplay. It's a bit of a trauma for me.

community that took pride in the lack of trivial limitations in its game this is pretty derpy

That's a bit harsh. The simple thing is that there is no reason in terms of gameplay. The reasons given in terms of story and background of making the game are valid (although the blueprint claim is a bit shaky. A harddrive won't be heavier when you put data on it, I believe that dots has written something about it).

In the end, I'll have it either way. The commander has the power of 2 engineers (and 20 tanks, easy math) and one engineer can easily build the hydro and let the ACU assist it. The only thing I'm against is letting it build radar towers so early because that will completely obliterate the risk that goes with sending your ACU to the front.

cheese/"lore"/

I find this an insult to the fanfiction of supcom: http://fiction-stories.com/word/?p=287, follow the google docs link there. Download the books. You won't be disappointed.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 04 Mar 2013, 20:23

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-04T20:07:40+02:00

well, i could spam this thread with my ideas of continuity in balancing, but for now i will just counter you quote with another

If it's not broken, dont fix it!

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 04 Mar 2013, 20:07

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-04T20:05:19+02:00

Valki wrote:
Strategy results from having as many viable choices as possible.

Creating options is a strategy, having options is not.

The DB

Statistics: Posted by TheDB — 04 Mar 2013, 20:05

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-04T19:26:40+02:00

ZaphodX wrote:
Well it adds a layer of strategy with engineer usage and t2 engineering upgrade. Why remove that?

It adds a limitation, not strategy.

Strategy results from having as many viable choices as possible.
Wouldn't you say that FAF offers more opening strategies because you can build an air factory whenever you want, instead of having to first build a cybernetics core such as in Starcraft 2?

Statistics: Posted by Valki — 04 Mar 2013, 19:26

Re: Why can't ACU make storage/hydro?

2013-03-04T19:11:20+02:00

Well it adds a layer of strategy with engineer usage and t2 engineering upgrade. Why remove that?

Statistics: Posted by ZaphodX — 04 Mar 2013, 19:11