Forged Alliance Forever Forged Alliance Forever Forums 2013-02-28T16:28:16+02:00 /feed.php?f=2&t=3120 2013-02-28T16:28:16+02:00 2013-02-28T16:28:16+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=32452#p32452 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]> I dunno, board games like Go and Chess seem to suggest that there can be a high skill ceiling even without any differences in how well players execute their choices.

I think the OP overlooks some important elements that make his statement untrue:


- Nonlinear/circular balance
The notion that "when everyone knows what to do, all that remains is who can do it better" is a terribly linear way of thinking. It's prevalent in an economy-heavy, tactics-light sort of gameplay. "If I do my economy better, and make more of the "best" units, then it doesnt matter what you do, where you go, or what you build - I'll just steamroll over you."

It's quite possible to have a game where not only are there situations where there are multiple equally viable solutions, but those solutions have different outcomes that lead to different counter strategies being optimal later. So one player might make a random/arbitrary choice between two equally viable strategies, but each of those choices result in a completely different sequence of "optimal choices" later on. If we add many layers of this over time, then it's impossible to say that there is one optimal path that the gameplay always takes.


- Human limitations, human differences
By designing a game with strategic gameplay that exceeds human limitations, then it's possible to prevent human players from attempting the "optimal path."
You could make a game require more decisions than a person can make in a short time, to be optimal.
You could make the game have a "possible events in the future" tree more complex than a human can keep track of in their head. (Go/Chess does this, for example.)
You could make economic choices shift according to circumstance and require a calculation ability normal humans can't achieve.

eg. You have a single "AOE repair missile" that you can launch every 2mins. It has a major effect and is a game changer. However, to determine the "best place" to use it, requires you to keep track of the health, enemies, and values of thousands of units involved in hundreds of battles, and make a judgement on which one of these hundreds of battles is the best to intervene in.


- Limited information
If the game was all about making the best build in NR time and then hurling your armies at each other, then information wouldn't be that important.
But in a game of counter-strategies, by limiting information available to the player (eg. scouting is hard and limited) then you are forced to try to predict your opponent's decisions rather than reacting to them.
When the optimal choice depends on what your opponent is doing, and you have no way of completely knowing what they are doing, how can you say that a game will devolve into a linear contest of micro skill?


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So anyways, if board games of strategy can exist and have a high "skill" ceiling, then an Computer Strategy Game with zero micro can exist, and have a high "skill" ceiling.

Is FA that game? I guess probably not. Reading the OP a bit more carefully, I guess he isn't saying that "A micro-free game cannot be skillful", he is saying, "With the current balance of FA, if we take player skill to Pro Esport levels, then matches will be decided by micro."
I can't conclusively refute the latter statement. I don't think it's conclusively proved yet, but it's certainly possible.

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 28 Feb 2013, 16:28


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2013-02-28T00:43:04+02:00 2013-02-28T00:43:04+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=32386#p32386 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]> Statistics: Posted by GallantDragon — 28 Feb 2013, 00:43


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2013-02-27T21:18:53+02:00 2013-02-27T21:18:53+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=32357#p32357 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>
Gowerly wrote:
Implies the game is completely balanced and that there isn't a hard counter system in place.


Mixed strategies(this is what I mean by gambling) will still do good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_stra ... d_strategy

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 27 Feb 2013, 21:18


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2013-02-27T12:04:43+02:00 2013-02-27T12:04:43+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=32285#p32285 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]> Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 27 Feb 2013, 12:04


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2013-02-27T00:35:34+02:00 2013-02-27T00:35:34+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=32220#p32220 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]> as every move will get countered.

Statistics: Posted by Mr-Smith — 27 Feb 2013, 00:35


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2013-02-22T16:57:31+02:00 2013-02-22T16:57:31+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31739#p31739 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>
rootbeer23 wrote:
what do we mean by "perfect"?

uberge3k wrote:
- You have a finite amount of actions you may perform.
- You have a very large, but finite, number of actions that you may perform that will improve the game in your favor.
- You have the ability to prioritize those possible actions based on cost efficiency.
- You then execute those prioritized actions.

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 22 Feb 2013, 16:57


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2013-02-22T09:03:39+02:00 2013-02-22T09:03:39+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31696#p31696 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>
Sunny wrote:
Agreed. Actually games theory tell us, that implementing strategy, proven to be perfect does not guarantee you win.


depends on the game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connect_Fo ... l_solution

Sunny wrote:
Only if it's statistically perfect, you are only guaranteed to have (over large number of games) no worse result, than other guy, doing as good. I don't touch broken game balance (and unbalancable), consider all this is about mirror matches.


what do we mean by "perfect"? is it the theoretically perfect game that neither human nor AI is capable of playing in reality or do we mean "making good choices"? because if you have 2 players making "good choices", player A's good choices can still be better than player B's good choices.
and if it is the absolute perfect choice, then the two players would always be doing exactly the same and play infinitely long matches if the map is symmetrical.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 22 Feb 2013, 09:03


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2013-02-22T05:47:44+02:00 2013-02-22T05:47:44+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31689#p31689 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>
rootbeer23 wrote:
whether that was a good choice will be decided in the minutes after you made the choice and depends on the actions of your opponent.


Agreed. Actually games theory tell us, that implementing strategy, proven to be perfect does not guarantee you win.
Only if it's statistically perfect, you are only guaranteed to have (over large number of games) no worse result, than other guy, doing as good. I don't touch broken game balance (and unbalancable), consider all this is about mirror matches.

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 22 Feb 2013, 05:47


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2013-02-21T20:14:33+02:00 2013-02-21T20:14:33+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31649#p31649 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>
Sunny wrote:
Nearly rofled here. Just imagine: projectile "randomness" is a pseudo-random sequence, starting with a certain seed.
Makes me think about Counter Strike, where people compensated pseudo-random recoil spray with mouse movements and even aim bots, doing this were developed :D

Indeed. At a high enough level, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of similar tools being developed, likely in the form of UI mods, to assist with determining the likely result of projectile randomness during engagements.
Sunny wrote:
When I'm speaking about gambing, try to imagine 2 of your optimal player's match, one will probably lose. He will still play perfect. Played many games, their stats will be dead even, assuming they gamble optimally. You can go comm one of flanks on many maps, and desicion depends on expectation of what your opponent will do too. This is far from being not complicated :)

In a hypothetical case of two perfect players, whomever wins would eventually be decided by whichever player had a faction advantage. Presently, we simply do not know the true balance of many lategame units - at best, we have approximations and guesses based on heavily biased opinions and imperfect knowledge - and therefore, it is highly likely that games would be decided by units that were discovered to not be perfectly balanced.

If both players were the same faction, then whomever wins would, necessarily, be the player who made fewer mistakes. It would just likely take longer to discover who the better player was.


rootbeer23 wrote:
so your definition of perfect is that it wins you the game?

there is no such thing as a perfect choice.
example: upgrade a mass extractor. whether that was a good choice will be decided in the minutes after you made the choice and depends on the actions of your opponent.
since you cannot know beforehand which of the actions in your priority list will turn out to be effective, you need luck to play a perfect game.

You can indeed know which of your actions will be most effective. Just as you know that it's more efficient to surround your T2 mex with storages before teching to T3, you know that certain openings are more efficient and leave you less open to risk than others.

In this example, you would only tech than mex if you knew that your opponent could not take advantage of it. You can easily find this out by scouting.

In pretty much any high level game, the players who consistently win tournaments are typically those who play conservatively, and leave themselves open to as little risk as possible. This is no exception, especially due to how cheap and efficient it is to scout at every stage of the game.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 21 Feb 2013, 20:14


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2013-02-21T18:40:57+02:00 2013-02-21T18:40:57+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31640#p31640 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>
uberge3k wrote:
FA is simulated.

If you enter an identical series of inputs, an identical sequence of events will play out. This is, for example, why replays work: they only store each player's commands, instead of the entire state of the game at every keyframe.

The only element of chance is projectile variance, which, in practice, is negligible due to the fact that no two players play evenly enough at a high enough level for a game to be won or lost purely due to this.


Nearly rofled here. Just imagine: projectile "randomness" is a pseudo-random sequence, starting with a certain seed.
Makes me think about Counter Strike, where people compensated pseudo-random recoil spray with mouse movements and even aim bots, doing this were developed :D

When I'm speaking about gambing, try to imagine 2 of your optimal player's match, one will probably lose. He will still play perfect. Played many games, their stats will be dead even, assuming they gamble optimally. You can go comm one of flanks on many maps, and desicion depends on expectation of what your opponent will do too. This is far from being not complicated :)

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 21 Feb 2013, 18:40


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2013-02-21T17:20:09+02:00 2013-02-21T17:20:09+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31630#p31630 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>
there is no such thing as a perfect choice.
example: upgrade a mass extractor. whether that was a good choice will be decided in the minutes after you made the choice and depends on the actions of your opponent.
since you cannot know beforehand which of the actions in your priority list will turn out to be effective, you need luck to play a perfect game.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 21 Feb 2013, 17:20


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2013-02-21T16:47:12+02:00 2013-02-21T16:47:12+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31624#p31624 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]> http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q ... ORM=DTPDIA
Definition of "luck" wrote:
NOUN
1. good fortune: success that seems to happen by chance
"a stroke of luck"
2. chance: the arbitrary distribution of events or outcomes
"a game of luck"
3. event determined by chance: something that seems to happen by chance rather than as a logical consequence

FA is simulated.

If you enter an identical series of inputs, an identical sequence of events will play out. This is, for example, why replays work: they only store each player's commands, instead of the entire state of the game at every keyframe.

The only element of chance is projectile variance, which, in practice, is negligible due to the fact that no two players play evenly enough at a high enough level for a game to be won or lost purely due to this.

Therefore, luck is only relevant if both you and your opponent play badly, intentionally or not. For example, one could forgo scouting entirely, and put everything into an early gun upgrade instead of a traditional land opening. If the other player is decent, he will scout you and counter with his own gun, but have an advantage due to the strategic attenuation because of the distances involved and his knowledge that map control will be largely uncontested in the interim.

However, if the other player plays for "luck" as well, forgoing scouting and assuming that he knows that you will be making a traditional land build, he will likely be destroyed by the unexpected tactic that he hadn't prepared for.


This is the great thing about FA: because scouting is so cheap and easy, there aren't many cost-effective "lucky" or "cheese" tactics that can consistently work.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 21 Feb 2013, 16:47


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2013-02-21T16:41:18+02:00 2013-02-21T16:41:18+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31622#p31622 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>

uberge3k wrote:
Logically, there can only be one "perfect" choice of action in any given situation

I already have written this above :)

There is also some fuzziness, in the lack of reckon. So you can actually play perfect in terms on chosing actions, but you don't have insurance of losing anyway. But you also can gamble statistically perfect :)

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 21 Feb 2013, 16:41


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2013-02-21T16:11:18+02:00 2013-02-21T16:11:18+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31613#p31613 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>
uberge3k wrote:
- You have a finite amount of actions you may perform.
- You have a very large, but finite, number of actions that you may perform that will improve the game in your favor.
- You have the ability to prioritize those possible actions based on cost efficiency.
- You then execute those prioritized actions.


you forgot one:

- be lucky enough that your opponent does not counter your strategy.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 21 Feb 2013, 16:11


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2013-02-21T15:27:00+02:00 2013-02-21T15:27:00+02:00 /viewtopic.php?t=3120&p=31604#p31604 <![CDATA[Re: "FA vs <insert popular game here>" and micro.]]>
- You have a finite amount of actions you may perform.
- You have a very large, but finite, number of actions that you may perform that will improve the game in your favor.
- You have the ability to prioritize those possible actions based on cost efficiency.
- You then execute those prioritized actions.

The only variable across players is the number of actions that you can perform, or APM. Everything else is constant.

While it might appear, on the surface, that you can "out-macro your enemy", in reality, your enemy is simply making sub-optimal choices. Logically, there can only be one "perfect" choice of action in any given situation - every other action is necessarily either equivalent, making the choice arbitrary, or inferior, which should naturally be dismissed.

rootbeer23 wrote:
what we need is a replay of a game of competent players at -10. that would give an insight into how the game differs between normal micro and superhuman micro. i'd be interested to try on say 5x5 desert arena.
i would bet that even at that speed it would be a challenge to manage and be quite interesting.

ROCK and I used to do the opposite; practice playing at +2/+3. It helps a lot.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 21 Feb 2013, 15:27


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